How's leatherneck sims?

[Gunfreak]

I know little of 3rd party developers.

How what type of quality can we expect from this?

Will the Corsair be in the same quality of EDs Warbirds, with same flight model.

 

http://leatherneck-sim.com/2021/06/25/2021-summer-update/

Edited August 21, 2021 by Gunfreak

[TLTeo]

Pretty much, yeah. Since the Hawk debacle especially, ED has been much more strict with what they allow 3rd parties to release. Leatherneck in general is a small team so they work pretty slowly, but the Mig-21 is a really good module.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

They do communicate really well. Hiromachi is da true MVP.

[-Rudel-]

Gunfreak,  

 

Though we are a team of 4 core members and hired contractors when needed,  we will continue to push our boundaries in quality as DCS World improves.  We are the first 3rd party team to release a module back in 2014...and back then, DCS World was very much different.  We continue to update our modules as time allows, and at the same time develop, research, and program more modules to come.

 

The only thing the Corsair won't have, is ED's new damage model system....as they are still working on it behind the scenes.  We have implemented the new propeller visual ED has created though.

I'm currently working on cockpit UVW unwraps and texturing.  In the end, users are the judge, so it's up to them if they would like to support us or not.

[Rudel_chw]

8 minutes ago, -Rudel- said:

users are the judge, so it's up to them if they would like to support us or not

 

I love your MiG-21, so of course I will purchase your new bird .. that's why I purchased your CE2 also, fun aircraft and I learned a lot about aerobatics with it 

[Sideburns]

While the MiG21 is enjoyable, it is not without some significant and in some cases long standing bugs. I would recommend checking the bugs section for any of the module developers you are interested in, and also any self hosted bug trackers they have, to come to your own conclusion of if these are bugs you are content to live with.

[BonerCat]

Back in the day, they made an amazing MiG-21 module
Ever since the name (and presumably team) change, the Fishbed (which was basically a finished module by then) has seen some laughable changes, primarily to the flight model
Audio and visual departments are top notch, but the god damn things FM is a meme
I wish they'd make the 21 great again, but I'm loosing hope
The F4U was the plane that initially got me into flight simming, and i m honestly on the fence about buying it from Leatherneck
Approach with caution

[burritto]

23 hours ago, -Rudel- said:

The only thing the Corsair won't have, is ED's new damage model system....as they are still working on it behind the scenes.

This has me somewhat worried.  On initial release will the Corsair at least have as good a damage model as existed before the new one was implemented?  I mostly fly in MP and this would determine whether or not the aircraft gets added to those servers.

 

The new damage model on the warbirds is a great leap forward and it's a shame you're not able to implement it, and then tweak the corsair model as the tech itself gets tweaked. 

[m4ti140]

5 hours ago, BonerCat said:

Back in the day, they made an amazing MiG-21 module
Ever since the name (and presumably team) change, the Fishbed (which was basically a finished module by then) has seen some laughable changes, primarily to the flight model
Audio and visual departments are top notch, but the god damn things FM is a meme
I wish they'd make the 21 great again, but I'm loosing hope
The F4U was the plane that initially got me into flight simming, and i m honestly on the fence about buying it from Leatherneck
Approach with caution

Define "meme". The only issue the FM has right now is that you can fly at like 60 alpha if you get through the initial instability, even though it should rock even harder at that AoA. If you mean that the aircraft stalls like it should now instead of aerodynamics completely turning off at critical alpha (as it used to be, the thing would suddenly turn into a brick), then the problem is with your ignorance not with the module. This thing isn't Mirage 2000, early deltas had all sorts of problems at higher AoA, wing rock being the most obvious one.

The main issues with MiG-21 are badly modelled avionics, with radar, gunsight and nav systems being, indeed, meme. FM is fine. Yet you somehow ignore the former (cause you probably use F-10 map and don't use any instruments) and moan about the latter cause it doesn't behave like it would in a certain arcade pay to win grindfest with fantasy FMs.

Edited September 3, 2021 by m4ti140

[Sideburns]

12 hours ago, m4ti140 said:

Define "meme". The only issue the FM has right now is that you can fly at like 60 alpha if you get through the initial instability, even though it should rock even harder at that AoA. If you mean that the aircraft stalls like it should now instead of aerodynamics completely turning off at critical alpha (as it used to be, the thing would suddenly turn into a brick), then the problem is with your ignorance not with the module. This thing isn't Mirage 2000, early deltas had all sorts of problems at higher AoA, wing rock being the most obvious one.

The main issues with MiG-21 are badly modelled avionics, with radar, gunsight and nav systems being, indeed, meme. FM is fine. Yet you somehow ignore the former (cause you probably use F-10 map and don't use any instruments) and moan about the latter cause it doesn't behave like it would in a certain arcade pay to win grindfest with fantasy FMs.

 

 

No need to question Bonercat's skills, imply he is ignorant or he's only interested in airquake to try and make a point. I'm pretty sure he is aware of the RWR spike and radar range issues among other non fm bugs.

 

Speaking of ignorant, you might want to check out this mature bug thread on low speed handling. It isn't just the wing rock. I would also recommend anyone liking your post to read the same. What is your opinion of this situation? Do you still endorse the flight model as "fine"?

 

"So, at 0.347M time of the turn has to be 37.5 sec = 9,6°/sec. We have in DCS now 12,9 sec. As I said before - the reason of this fact is over performed G-load!"

 

 

[m4ti140]

8 hours ago, BigNose said:

 

I have to disagree, there is much more glaring issues with the Mig-21bis FM than just the 60° AoA trick which shouldn't be possible.

The entire performance envelope above M0.5 being very slightly higher than what performance charts indicate I can live with, I'm setting that aside.

But the abilities the Mig-21bis in DCS develops at speeds below M0.5 are seperating significantly from what can be considered reasonable.

 

Fighting a good pilot in the Mig-21bis vs one of the more modern fighters in a dogfight can currently lead to some hilarious moments of disbelief.

I've seen Fishbeds do things especially below M0.5 that seem to defy every reason to ever have to build a newer airframe.

 

The Developers at Magnitude 3LLC (don't really like calling them Leatherneck for the sake of differentiating from Heatblur) have been told this at numerous occasions over the last years, especially in that thread Sideburns posted. However their acknowledgements that this would be forwarded to the FM developer/s are old now, and have not lead to significant improvement since those times.

 

I don't know what happened when the original Leatherneck split into Magnitude 3LL and Heatblur... But I know what dev's modules I'm looking forward to now, and which one's I don't.

 

 

Yeah, you're right, forgot about the G issues. I might be too focused on the avionics, cause they're in a really sorry state. Particularly the radar which is not affected by clutter to the degree it should and doesn't trigger lock warnings in RWRs. Not to mention detecting fighter sized aircraft as far as the scale extends.

Nothing actually changed in terms of FM development of MiG-21 when they split, it's done by the same guy, who's a former MiG-21 pilot.
Heatblur also had their share of FM issues (Viggen sidewinder rails bug that persistently returns no matter how many times they try to fix it, back in the day also F-14 low speed turn rate), but overall it's higher fidelity and they seem to care more. MiG-21 FM is really showing its age with no plans of bigger reworks. Same issue with many avionics systems.

Still, wouldn't call the FM meme. MiG-19 FM was way more OP last time I checked. 0.3-0.5G disparity is tame compared to some stuff we have and especially compared to what it used to be. Until the last upgrade there was no structural damage at all - you could pull 20G if you could figure out how to - and stall pretty much used to turn off the aerodynamics instead of even attempting to recreate what happens to deltas at high AoA. And the last part is what most people upset by FM changes I've seen were on about - they were complaining they were being punished for stalling out too harshly.

Edited September 4, 2021 by m4ti140

[Mogster]

On 8/21/2021 at 5:57 PM, Gunfreak said:

I know little of 3rd party developers.

How what type of quality can we expect from this?

Will the Corsair be in the same quality of EDs Warbirds, with same flight model.

 

http://leatherneck-sim.com/2021/06/25/2021-summer-update/

 

The I-16 is 3rd party and sits comfortably alongside EDs in house warbirds.

[Volator]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:11 PM, Sideburns said:

While the MiG21 is enjoyable, it is not without some significant and in some cases long standing bugs. I would recommend checking the bugs section for any of the module developers you are interested in, and also any self hosted bug trackers they have, to come to your own conclusion of if these are bugs you are content to live with.

Totally agree. Being one of the oldest modules, it might suffer a lot from spaghetti code. A total makeover would be great, the MiG-21 as one of the most iconic aircraft would definitely deserve it. And yes, I'd be willing to pay for that, if they get the avionics and the FM right.

[hovring]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:18 PM, BonerCat said:

Back in the day, they made an amazing MiG-21 module
Ever since the name (and presumably team) change, the Fishbed (which was basically a finished module by then) has seen some laughable changes, primarily to the flight model
Audio and visual departments are top notch, but the god damn things FM is a meme
I wish they'd make the 21 great again, but I'm loosing hope
The F4U was the plane that initially got me into flight simming, and i m honestly on the fence about buying it from Leatherneck
Approach with caution

Yup, though the new patch made the sound NOT top notch!

So use caution!

This is the way.

[Peter5on]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:18 PM, BonerCat said:

Back in the day, they made an amazing MiG-21 module
Ever since the name (and presumably team) change, the Fishbed (which was basically a finished module by then) has seen some laughable changes, primarily to the flight model
Audio and visual departments are top notch, but the god damn things FM is a meme
I wish they'd make the 21 great again, but I'm loosing hope
The F4U was the plane that initially got me into flight simming, and i m honestly on the fence about buying it from Leatherneck
Approach with caution

What do you expect from a very small team? This module will be more like a mod after few more years, because they cannot keep up with bigger and more competent teams like Razbam, Heatblur or Deeka. The sad thing is that we need to get rid of them by not buying their modules. Thanks to that they will not be able to claim to develop popular planes and leave them in the stagnation for years. Sorry but they need to go VEAO way... Would you like to have P-40 build by VEAO with broken flight model and bugs not fixed in years? Im a customer I paid full price for the product yet the product feels unfinished. I will never again buy anything from any 3rd party developer. Its just not worth it, better to wait for ED to develop it.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Peter5on said:

I will never again buy anything from any 3rd party developer.

 

Your loss ... on my side of this fence, I have got so much enjoyment out of the Mig-21 that sometimes I feel a bit guilty about getting literally hundred of hours of entertainment out of a Module that I purchased on 2014 for just US$ 25 on a Xmas Sale.

 

I choose to support even small developers like this, because the cost to me is truly insignificant when compared to the hours of fun that I get out of them, and there is always the chance that they may develop even more interesting aircrafts for DCS .. I'm truly hopeful for their upcoming Corsair, and of course will purchase it as soon as it hits the store .. a pleasure that you will miss because you feel that you don't get enough for your big money 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Rudel_chw

[Paganus]

There are zero perfect, or bug free modules in the DCS World eco system. This goes for all third party teams, as well as Eagle Dynamics. 

The Leatherneck/Magnitude 3 modules are on par with the others.

I have enjoyed many hours of seat time in both the MiG-21, and the CE2. 

To date Leatherneck/Magnitude 3 is the only third party team, other than OctopusG,  to deliver a propeller driven aircraft. 

Ultimately, you will have to decide for yourself when the time comes, but I will be buying the F4U. 

[-Rudel-]

9 hours ago, Peter5on said:

What do you expect from a very small team? This module will be more like a mod after few more years, because they cannot keep up with bigger and more competent teams like Razbam, Heatblur or Deeka. The sad thing is that we need to get rid of them by not buying their modules. Thanks to that they will not be able to claim to develop popular planes and leave them in the stagnation for years. Sorry but they need to go VEAO way... Would you like to have P-40 build by VEAO with broken flight model and bugs not fixed in years? Im a customer I paid full price for the product yet the product feels unfinished. I will never again buy anything from any 3rd party developer. Its just not worth it, better to wait for ED to develop it.

Sorry, but we're here to stay, despite your negative opinions.  You may think that we're not competent, but we have our priorities too.  And at the moment, it's the F4U.  The 21 is not in a state of ruining game play 100% and hundreds of non-forum users are having fun without complaint.  Even with the bugs, Reddit users are reporting it to be super fun.
 

Yes, there are bugs (some of which creep up after ED compiles their code for an update), but which modules have zero bugs and are 100% complete?  As long as ED keeps updating their code, nothing will ever be 100% finished.

Maybe you shouldn't buy anything from ED as well, until they are 100% finished with DCS World and their modules.

Edited January 5, 2022 by -Rudel-

[Boosterdog]

10 hours ago, Peter5on said:

because they cannot keep up with bigger and more competent teams like Razbam

I just spat my coffee.......Loves my harrier as much as I loves my 21 but.....

I personally wouldnt hold off buying another Mag 3 product if it interested me. Ive had 100s of hours of fun out of the MiG. 

[WinterH]

MiG-21 has been a favorite for me since its release. Yes there's been downs, quite a few, and sometimes big ones. But LN kept updating/fixing, and MiG is still charming many newcomers despite being a ln ancient module. They've also shown the courage to release a civilian aircraft for pure joy of flight, which I also respect.

F4U and F-8 are both among my most anticipated modules, as well as the teased Su-17 or 22. So yeah, being them on guys, I'm waiting to get them

 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 1/5/2022 at 4:52 PM, Gypsy 1-1 said:

The Mig-21 has received constant updates, even an external model rework/workup since it came out. It was the first 3rd party FF module as far as I remember. If that doesn't show commitment then I don't know. They are also usually pretty quick to address bugs compared to other developers.

Provided they know what they're dealing with. The radar FPS killer took 'em a bit. It seems to be back for some, too.

[Callsign112]

On 1/6/2022 at 3:37 AM, WinterH said:

MiG-21 has been a favorite for me since its release. Yes there's been downs, quite a few, and sometimes big ones. But LN kept updating/fixing, and MiG is still charming many newcomers despite being a ln ancient module. They've also shown the courage to release a civilian aircraft for pure joy of flight, which I also respect.

F4U and F-8 are both among my most anticipated modules, as well as the teased Su-17 or 22. So yeah, being them on guys, I'm waiting to get them

 

I haven't started purchasing jets yet, but with the amount of enjoyment I am getting from using the CE II, the MiG 21 will be my first jet purchase. Thoroughly impressed with the attention to detail and quality of the CE II, and very much looking forward to the Corsair.

[Boosterdog]

45 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

I haven't started purchasing jets yet, but with the amount of enjoyment I am getting from using the CE II, the MiG 21 will be my first jet purchase. Thoroughly impressed with the attention to detail and quality of the CE II, and very much looking forward to the Corsair.

Im sorta the opposite though I have a spitfire somewhere from years ago....... which I why I read your post and said aloud "its not a Corsair, its a Crusader" 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

29 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

The radar thing seemed to be hardware combination related. I never had this issue and I don't have a top of the line system. Just the nature of running custom code within a changing platform like DCS.

I think it was. I think it only affected nVidia chipsets.

[Callsign112]

5 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

Im sorta the opposite though I have a spitfire somewhere from years ago....... which I why I read your post and said aloud "its not a Corsair, its a Crusader" 

I think they are planning to release the Corsair first.

 

You can read more about it here:

 

and here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F4U_Corsair