fixed F/A-18C Hornet TWS messed up by ghost target

[Max Mak]

I've seen some reported bug on the TWS issue in the current built. One of the topic talking about the F18 radar confused between more than 1 contact.

 

Recently, I found that the TWS seems messed up by the "ghost" targets when launching the missiles on multiple targets. 

Basically, when I try to launch 10 AIM120C to 10 targets that is work perfectly in the previous build, the radar seems to be messed up by some very close targets and losing lock to the original targets during the missile launch. 

I initially think that it is due to the own missiles being scanned by the own radar. However, when I try to pick up one of that mysterious target and chase it. I found that it is a "ghost" target. 

Therefore, it seems that the TWS is messing up with some unknown emission during the missile launch, and may explain why someone report previously that the F18 radar confused between more than 1 contact. 

I attached the track file and the tacview file here for your reference. I record them in DCS open beta DCS 2.7.5.10869. Many thanks. 

new tests:

1. 

2. 

 

 

 

TWS bug (ghost target).trk TWS bug (ghost target).acmi

Edited September 27, 2021 by Max Mak

[Dr. Anti-Vehicle]

Thanks for raising more awareness on this. I started to notice this bug since missile RCS update that allows radar to easily track and lock a missile. Combining the behavior in this situation, it is likely that missile is messing up Hornet's radar. But it might not be a single issue.

[BIGNEWY]

Reported to the team who will take a closer look

 

thanks

[BIGNEWY]

22 hours ago, Max Mak said:

I've seen some reported bug on the TWS issue in the current built. One of the topic talking about the F18 radar confused between more than 1 contact.

 

Recently, I found that the TWS seems messed up by the "ghost" targets when launching the missiles on multiple targets. 

Basically, when I try to launch 10 AIM120C to 10 targets that is work perfectly in the previous build, the radar seems to be messed up by some very close targets and losing lock to the original targets during the missile launch. 

I initially think that it is due to the own missiles being scanned by the own radar. However, when I try to pick up one of that mysterious target and chase it. I found that it is a "ghost" target. 

Therefore, it seems that the TWS is messing up with some unknown emission during the missile launch, and may explain why someone report previously that the F18 radar confused between more than 1 contact. 

I attached the track file and the tacview file here for your reference. I record them in DCS open beta DCS 2.7.5.10869. Many thanks. 

 

 

 

TWS bug (ghost target).trk 229.29 kB · 3 downloads TWS bug (ghost target).acmi 1.43 MB · 3 downloads

 

 

 

Hi, 

 

some observations by the team, you should increase your contact fade time from 4 to 16 or 32 it will help, also do not use RAID mode you will get better results.

 

thank you

[Shimmergloom667]

20 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

 

Hi, 

 

some observations by the team, you should increase your contact fade time from 4 to 16 or 32 it will help, also do not use RAID mode you will get better results.

 

thank you

 

That said: is the discrepancy between age-out of the *bricks* and actual age.out of the trackfiles being worked upon? Because the latter shouldn't age out to begin with.

[dorianR666]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

you should increase your contact fade time from 4 to 16 or 32 it will help

this is another bug btw. changing this variable should have no impact in this scenario.

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

I’m glad I am not the only one noticing this. Some aircraft, like the Jf-17 for instance, can’t even be picked up and can sneak right under the Hornets radar. 

[Dr. Anti-Vehicle]

3 hours ago, dorianR666 said:

this is another bug btw. changing this variable should have no impact in this scenario.

Yeah. It does not sound like a solution.

[Max Mak]

On 8/26/2021 at 12:55 AM, BIGNEWY said:

 

 

Hi, 

 

some observations by the team, you should increase your contact fade time from 4 to 16 or 32 it will help, also do not use RAID mode you will get better results.

 

thank you

I actually use contact fade time 16 and no RAID mode was used in my attached track. But seems that this issue is not related to the contact fade time or the mode being used, it is about the unknown targets being tracked by the radar. Thanks for reply.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Max Mak

[Dr. Anti-Vehicle]

This is still very much borked. It’s impossible to keep steering dot inside of center circle because is jumps everywhere.

[Jenson]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:26 PM, Dr. Anti-Vehicle said:

This is still very much borked. It’s impossible to keep steering dot inside of center circle because is jumps everywhere.

 

Yes, I also experienced the contacts jumping everywhere. Especially in TWS RAID mode, after I acquired 2-3 target as L&S, TD2, TD3, then these already-acquired target just jumped away and I lost like 1-2 target. They just tend to get lost every a few seconds. This happened while I was playing Ravon One mission 13 alert 7. 10 contacts are all within 40 nm. 

[BIGNEWY]

please add short track replay examples if you are having issues. 

 

thanks

[Max Mak]

On 9/23/2021 at 5:21 PM, BIGNEWY said:

please add short track replay examples if you are having issues. 

 

thanks

 

Seems the problem did not fixed yet. Maybe this time I need to point out the problem more precisely to see if there is any possible fix, no matter it is really a bug or it is only my operation problem.

I did another flight in DCS 2.7.6.13133 Open Beta, since this problem is easily to reproduce. I attached the track file, tacview and the video recording here. You can clearly see that I have already increased the contact fade time from 4 to 16, also no RAID mode was used in the TWS mode. After that, in the missile launch you can clearly see that the locking is already very fluctuated when switching target (another issue), and then I suddenly locking an unknown target that messed up with my originally launching sequence on multiple target. This time the AIM120Cs are luckily enough to continue chase and hit the target. However, most of the time this unknown target will make my AIM120C no longer active to chase and hit the original targets if I lost lock to this unknown target. This time since the lock haven't lost so I follow the unknown target again, and you can clearly see that actually there is noting in front of me. Noted that there is more than one unknown target in my radar contact. 

This problem is really annoying and make the TWS mode in F/A-18C is even more unreliable than the old F-14B... 

If you need other evidences showing that how AIM120C being inactive when loss lock to the unknown target, I can provide it in the next reply. Many thanks. 

 

 

Tacview-20210924-223915-DCS TWS bug (ghost target)20210924.zip.acmi TWS bug (ghost target)20210924.trk

Edited September 24, 2021 by Max Mak

[Max Mak]

10 hours ago, Max Mak said:

 

Seems the problem did not fixed yet. Maybe this time I need to point out the problem more precisely to see if there is any possible fix, no matter it is really a bug or it is only my operation problem.

I did another flight in DCS 2.7.6.13133 Open Beta, since this problem is easily to reproduce. I attached the track file, tacview and the video recording here. You can clearly see that I have already increased the contact fade time from 4 to 16, also no RAID mode was used in the TWS mode. After that, in the missile launch you can clearly see that the locking is already very fluctuated when switching target (another issue), and then I suddenly locking an unknown target that messed up with my originally launching sequence on multiple target. This time the AIM120Cs are luckily enough to continue chase and hit the target. However, most of the time this unknown target will make my AIM120C no longer active to chase and hit the original targets if I lost lock to this unknown target. This time since the lock haven't lost so I follow the unknown target again, and you can clearly see that actually there is noting in front of me. Noted that there is more than one unknown target in my radar contact. 

This problem is really annoying and make the TWS mode in F/A-18C is even more unreliable than the old F-14B... 

If you need other evidences showing that how AIM120C being inactive when loss lock to the unknown target, I can provide it in the next reply. Many thanks. 

 

 

Tacview-20210924-223915-DCS TWS bug (ghost target)20210924.zip.acmi 426.94 kB · 1 download TWS bug (ghost target)20210924.trk 295.83 kB · 1 download

 

 

Supplementary evidence to my last post is provided here. Attached flight record is showing that when TWS lost lock to those "ghost targets", the AIM120Cs no longer active to chase and hit the original targets. At the end of this flight, my radar finally lock my own AIM120Cs instead of my "ghost targets", and clearly that the TWS engagement parameters of my own AIM120Cs are differed from the "ghost targets". Thus, these things are not the own missiles. Collectively my conclusion is that the "ghost targets" will definitely messing the TWS to chase and hit the "real targets". This issue is not related to 1) contact fade time and 2) RAID mode of TWS, it is an separate issue that the TWS tracking something that DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXISTS. 

I hope that you will really notice that this is a problem. Many thanks.

 

 

Tacview-20210924-235330-DCS TWS bug (ghost target)-lost lock.zip.acmi TWS bug (ghost target)-lost lock.trk

Edited September 25, 2021 by Max Mak

[Dr. Anti-Vehicle]

3 hours ago, Max Mak said:

 

Supplementary evidence to my last post is provided here. Attached flight record is showing that when TWS lost lock to those "ghost targets", the AIM120Cs no longer active to chase and hit the original targets. At the end of this flight, my radar finally lock my own AIM120Cs instead of my "ghost targets", and clearly that the TWS engagement parameters of my own AIM120Cs are differed from the "ghost targets". Thus, collectively my conclusion is that the "ghost targets" will definitely messing the TWS to chase and hit the "real targets". This issue is not related to 1) contact fade time and 2) RAID mode of TWS, it is an separate issue that the TWS tracking something that DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXISTS. 

I hope that you will really notice that this is a problem. Many thanks.

 

 

Tacview-20210924-235330-DCS TWS bug (ghost target)-lost lock.zip.acmi 536.93 kB · 0 downloads TWS bug (ghost target)-lost lock.trk 235.23 kB · 0 downloads

 

I think i's one that radar can detect own missile, but it's another thing that radar decides to use missile contact to guide missile instead of sticking to primary LNS. The depth of radar glitch is concerning.

[Max Mak]

17 hours ago, Dr. Anti-Vehicle said:

I think i's one that radar can detect own missile, but it's another thing that radar decides to use missile contact to guide missile instead of sticking to primary LNS. The depth of radar glitch is concerning.

Detecting own missile is acceptable, but clearly on my video footage there are something’s other than the missiles can be detected by own radar during missile launch, and surprisingly they are invisible.

[Dr. Anti-Vehicle]

2 hours ago, Max Mak said:

Detecting own missile is acceptable, but clearly on my video footage there are something’s other than the missiles can be detected by own radar during missile launch, and surprisingly they are invisible.

Yeah, but what I found was that if my missile is flying outside of radar scanning azimuth, the lock would not jump around. Once the missile flies in the radar scanning azimuth, the bug would present.

[Max Mak]

10 hours ago, Dr. Anti-Vehicle said:

Yeah, but what I found was that if my missile is flying outside of radar scanning azimuth, the lock would not jump around. Once the missile flies in the radar scanning azimuth, the bug would present.

Yes, definitely that the “ghost targets” only present during missile launch, normally the radar didn’t pick up something weird all the time. Let’s wait the ED team responds on this issue, hope that they can correct it very soon. I’ve already lost interest to the Hornet due to this radar issue, now I have much more fun playing with the old F14B.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Max Mak

[Max Mak]

@BIGNEWY can you take a look in the new evidences that I’ve provided?

 

Many thanks.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi,

 

I have made a report and asked the team to check TWS and ghost contacts. 

 

thanks

[wilbur81]

Some more TWS weirdness: When TWS Undesig-pressing through and firing on four TWS tracks, the radar suddenly locks something (my wingman's missile??) behind the jet...screwing up the AUTO mode big time for the previous 120C launches.

 

TWS Ghost Track.trk

Edited February 9, 2022 by wilbur81

[BIGNEWY]

This is reported, I have added your track to my report. 

Posts merged

thanks

[Max Mak]

This is an follow up report for the same issue:

I need to open a new topic because the previous one had been closed. 

 

Since ED stated that the ghost contact have been fixed in the change log of DCS 2.7.12.23362 Open Beta. I updated the game and tested it again today. However, I found that my TWS lock is still messing up by unknown contact when launching multiple AIM120s. In this mission I firing AIM120s to five IL-76MD, I suddenly locking an unknown target (170Vc, 0.7RNG; as you can see in 1:20 in the attached video) when I switching targets. This clearly not the own missile (as the own missile must be negative Vc), and not the IL-76MD (as all of them are at 900Vc, 2X.X RNG). The unknown contact messing up my TWS, and I finally losing tracks for all the previosly launched AIM120s. Although the AIM120s finally hit targets, it is only due the the current build of AIM120 able to turn on their own radar in the final phase to aquire the target, my own radar already losing tracks for the AIM120s at the time when detecting and losing the unknown target. Therefore, the ghost contact issue is not completely fixed, it only disappear faster than before, but I can still detect it easily when switching target in multiple AIM120s launch. 

I also attached my track file, tacview and mission file here for your reference, many thanks. 

1 vs 5 AIM120 train.miz TWS bug 20220430.trk Tacview-20220430-222445-DCS-1 vs 5 AIM120 train.zip.acmi

[wilbur81]

I've found the same with 2.7.12 as well. And the own-missile-lock is still VERY prevalent.