reported earlier ATFLIR lock and AGM-65F slew

[84-Simba]

Hi guys !

I see that a lot of us are struggling with the impossibility to slew the seeker of the AGM-65F when the POD is locked on something, should it be waypoint, scene of point track.

 

The real problem is to fine tune the IR lock of the Maverick, especially with moving targets of target in close vincinity of other heat signatures.

 

I found myself having to get the target with the POD, point the VVSL to the target, uncage the Mav, then go back to the POD to switch it to VVSL (and unlock) then switch back to the Mav to slew it and fine tune.

 

But you guessed it, you lose your SA and have to search other vehicules of a convoy again.

 

The workaround is to put Mark points in advance in the path of the vehicules ... not really great.

 

All this because we can't move that goddamn seeker when the POD is locked.

 

Now the question is :

Is it a bug ?

Or is it a limitation of the weapons and POD relations in the IRL Hornet ?

 

Thx

Simba

[Harker]

The TPOD is irrelevant, what matters is that you have a ground designation (diamond). Currently, we are unable to slew the Maverick seeker with a ground designation present.

 

The TAC Pocket Guide describes two different ways of employing the Maverick with a designated A/G target - one of them seems to allow slewing of the seeker with a ground designation present, but we don't have it in DCS.

[84-Simba]

Correct.

I just tried with an AG radar lock on a ship and slewing doesn't work either.

[BIGNEWY]

please include a short track replay when trying to report a bug. 

 

I can not reproduce any problem, seems to be working as intended for me. 

 

thanks

[84-Simba]

On 8/31/2021 at 11:40 AM, BIGNEWY said:

please include a short track replay when trying to report a bug. 

 

I can not reproduce any problem, seems to be working as intended for me. 

 

thanks

Hi Sir.

And how am I supposed to do that ?

Filming my hands and the screen with a GoPro ?

 

Come on my friend.

Just hop in the Hornet cold and dark, designate anything with the ATFLIR or the radar and lock it.

Then hand-off to the Maverick, and try to slew it.

 

It won't work.

 

If it works for you then please describe step by step very precisely how you do it.

That way we can check if we are all not doing something wrong.

 

It is an Open Beta where we kindly report potential bugs for you to improve and develop your products.

 

But we are not supposed to sacrifice precious minutes of ''flying'' just to figure how to report bugs.

 

Every other Hornet drivers I talked with are experiencing this problem and it is now more a matter of how to work around this ...

 

If it is supposed to be that way, so be it.

 

But just don't ask me to sacrifice a couple of hours to elaborate a plan to show a bug.

 

Just ... try it.

 

Thank you

 

Regards

[BIGNEWY]

Hi,

 

you can save a track replay when you exit the mission during the debrief window.

 

thanks 

[shagrat]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb RoxSy:

Hi Sir.

And how am I supposed to do that ?

Filming my hands and the screen with a GoPro ?

 

Come on my friend.

Just hop in the Hornet cold and dark, designate anything with the ATFLIR or the radar and lock it.

Then hand-off to the Maverick, and try to slew it.

 

It won't work.

 

If it works for you then please describe step by step very precisely how you do it.

That way we can check if we are all not doing something wrong.

 

It is an Open Beta where we kindly report potential bugs for you to improve and develop your products.

 

But we are not supposed to sacrifice precious minutes of ''flying'' just to figure how to report bugs.

 

Every other Hornet drivers I talked with are experiencing this problem and it is now more a matter of how to work around this ...

 

If it is supposed to be that way, so be it.

 

But just don't ask me to sacrifice a couple of hours to elaborate a plan to show a bug.

 

Just ... try it.

 

Thank you

 

Regards

If a tester can't reproduce the error you describe, a track file (not a video!), provides a lot of detailed information for debugging.

For example it contains your complete settings and options configuration, all your input from buttons pressed, switch position to system states.

Even without EDs debugging tools testers and devs can use track replays to compare procedures to what you did in game and identify what's different. 

 

[84-Simba]

Damn I need to think more before speaking.

I was thinking replays were just ... replays (safe to say I never used them)

I was imaging something to show my hands to check on my procedures, not realizing tracks contain key presses and other useful things.

 

Sadly I won't be able to even turn on DCS in the next couple of weeks.

So if someone can go at it, feel free.

 

If not, I'll find time to set up something when I come back.

 

Sorry for the rant though.

[SMN]

Here's the track.
ATFLIR+AGM=-65F.trk
I specially put the oil rig near the target (tank). TGP - SCENE, slew the over the tank, uncaged AGM,  but the AGM-65F  locked oil rig (as the larger one). And I need to slew the AGM-65F over the tank, which is impossible because the AGM-65F cursor in this case is blocked and not slewed!

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by SMN

[84-Simba]

Thank you mate !

 

[shagrat]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb SMN:

Here's the track.
ATFLIR+AGM=-65F.trk
I specially put the oil rig near the target (tank). TGP - SCENE, slew the over the tank, uncaged AGM,  but the AGM-65F  locked oil rig (as the larger one). And I need to slew the AGM-65F over the tank, which is impossible because the AGM-65F cursor in this case is blocked and not slewed!

 

 

The right MFD with the TGP is selected for control with the TDC. Indicated, by the diamond symbol in the upper right corner.

Switch to the left MFD with the MAV, with SensorSelectSwitch left (check diamond is on the MAV screen) then you control the MAV seeker with the TDC.

It may be necessary to depress TDC to actually command a lock, if it can't lock the tank immediately on slew.

Edited September 3, 2021 by shagrat

[AstonMartinDBS]

3 hours ago, SMN said:

And I need to slew the AGM-65F over the tank, which is impossible because the AGM-65F cursor in this case is blocked and not slewed!

I've re-tried your track a few times and you're right. It's not possible to slew the MAV-F.

To get a MAV-F-lock onto the T-55 instead the nearby oil rig it's sometimes necessary to (multiple) uncage and (re)cage, sometimes a simple SCS right (sensor priority to the ATFLIR) followed by SCS left (sensor priority back to the MAV-F) helped, but in some cases the hand-off worked instant.

 

FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 04.trk FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 01 handoff instant.trk FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 02 handoff instant.trk FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 03.trk

[AstonMartinDBS]

15 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Switch to the left MFD with the MAV, with SensorSelectSwitch left (check diamond is on the MAV screen) then you control the MAV seeker with the TDC.

It may be necessary to depress TDC to actually command a lock, if it can't lock the tank immediately on slew.

The only way to get the MAF-F sensor slewed is to simultaneously hold down UNDESIGNATE and TDC depress. But it's still impossible to get a lock onto the T-55. As soon as you release UNDESIGNATE and TDC depress, the MAF-F re-locks to the oil rig.

IMHO this is a bug and NOT as intended.

FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 05 slew but no lock.trk

[SMN]

11 minutes ago, AstonMartinDBS said:

I've re-tried your track a few times and you're right. It's not possible to slew the MAV-F.

To get a MAV-F-lock onto the T-55 instead the nearby oil rig it's sometimes necessary to (multiple) uncage and (re)cage, sometimes a simple SCS right (sensor priority to the ATFLIR) followed by SCS left (sensor priority back to the MAV-F) helped, but in some cases the hand-off worked instant.

 

FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 04.trk 299.43 kB · 0 downloads FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 01 handoff instant.trk 463.16 kB · 0 downloads FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 02 handoff instant.trk 499.57 kB · 0 downloads FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 03.trk 417.31 kB · 0 downloads

Is this a bug or not (It's not possible to slew the MAV-F)?  IMHO this is a bug.
What do the developers have to say?

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by SMN

[SMN]

34 minutes ago, shagrat said:

The right MFD with the TGP is selected for control with the TDC. Indicated, by the diamond symbol in the upper right corner.

Switch to the left MFD with the MAV, with SensorSelectSwitch left (check diamond is on the MAV screen) then you control the MAV seeker with the TDC.

It may be necessary to depress TDC to actually command a lock, if it can't lock the tank immediately on slew.

 

There are no difference which MFDs is active (and depress or not TDC) !
Do it yourself in my attached above track!

Edited September 3, 2021 by SMN

[SMN]

38 minutes ago, AstonMartinDBS said:

I've re-tried your track a few times and you're right. It's not possible to slew the MAV-F.

To get a MAV-F-lock onto the T-55 instead the nearby oil rig it's sometimes necessary to (multiple) uncage and (re)cage, sometimes a simple SCS right (sensor priority to the ATFLIR) followed by SCS left (sensor priority back to the MAV-F) helped, but in some cases the hand-off worked instant.

 

FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 04.trk 299.43 kB · 1 download FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 01 handoff instant.trk 463.16 kB · 1 download FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 02 handoff instant.trk 499.57 kB · 1 download FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 03.trk 417.31 kB · 1 download

I'm talking about not able to slew the AGM-65F cursor in this case to correct improper lock.
And about the correct locking the target (tank) immediately instead of the oil rig in AUTO ATFLIR mode - that's another thing!

Edited September 3, 2021 by SMN

[Harker]

If the intention is to show that the Maverick cannot be manually slewed when an AG designation is present, there is no need to get tracks etc, this is how it's implemented in DCS. As such, it's not a bug, as it is working as intended.

The point is that the implementation is different from the real one (at least according to the -300, it's my only source on that matter), not that it's buggy.

[AstonMartinDBS]

Just now, Harker said:

If the intention is to show that the Maverick cannot be manually slewed when an AG designation is present, there is no need to get tracks

In the following track I tried to demonstrate, that it's impossible to remove an existing AG designation to make the MAF-F seeker proper slewable and get a lock subesquently.

FA-18C ATFLIR AGM-65F 05 slew but no lock.trk

 

I cannot estimate if this is a bug or like IRL or just inproper implemented.

[shagrat]

Ok, so I checked today. Disclaimer: no real life F/A-18C pilot here, so can not tell if this is true to life or not.

I have realistic TDC enabled in the special options.

Set up a similar scene. Oil rig with a T-55 some 60m away. WP1 is at the base of the Oil rig.

Ingress, make sure Master arm is on, A/G mode selected, TGP on RMFD, stores on LMFD, center MFD HSI.

Box WAYP on center MFD, select WP1, then WPDESG. This slaves TGP and MAV to the designation. TGP should now look at the oil rig.

On LMFD box MAVF and press OSB again to call the MAV video feed. Sensor Select left to get the diamond on the MAV screen, this should uncage the MAV, as well and commands it to look at the oil rig(WP1). It should lock the oil rig.

As long as there is a ground designation, everything is slaved to it!

Now, there are to options. 1) change the designation and Cage/uncage the MAV to slave to the new point (useful if you switch between Markpoints or prearranged waypoints with different targets) or 2) with focus still on the MAV screen, press NoseWheelSteering/undesignate once to remove the INS designation and then depress and hold(!) the TDC while slewing the MAV seeker over the T-55. Releasing TDC depress will command the MAV seeker to attempt a lock.

Again, I can't say if this is the correct implementation, but like this I can operate the MAVF manually.

Please check, if this works the same, for you. 

[SMN]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

Ok, so I checked today. Disclaimer: no real life F/A-18C pilot here, so can not tell if this is true to life or not.

I have realistic TDC enabled in the special options.

Set up a similar scene. Oil rig with a T-55 some 60m away. WP1 is at the base of the Oil rig.

Ingress, make sure Master arm is on, A/G mode selected, TGP on RMFD, stores on LMFD, center MFD HSI.

Box WAYP on center MFD, select WP1, then WPDESG. This slaves TGP and MAV to the designation. TGP should now look at the oil rig.

On LMFD box MAVF and press OSB again to call the MAV video feed. Sensor Select left to get the diamond on the MAV screen, this should uncage the MAV, as well and commands it to look at the oil rig(WP1). It should lock the oil rig.

As long as there is a ground designation, everything is slaved to it!

Now, there are to options. 1) change the designation and Cage/uncage the MAV to slave to the new point (useful if you switch between Markpoints or prearranged waypoints with different targets) or 2) with focus still on the MAV screen, press NoseWheelSteering/undesignate once to remove the INS designation and then depress and hold(!) the TDC while slewing the MAV seeker over the T-55. Releasing TDC depress will command the MAV seeker to attempt a lock.

Again, I can't say if this is the correct implementation, but like this I can operate the MAVF manually.

Please check, if this works the same, for you. 

Yes, option 2 is work!
ATFLIR+AGM-65F OK.trk
Only it is necessary to perform this procedure as close to the target as possible, because the maverick cursor is not stabilized on the ground!
And this swith off lock the target in ATFLIR and you have to look for the target again

Edited September 4, 2021 by SMN

[oldcrusty]

Just a quick note:  If you have FLIR loaded, use it to lock whatever target you need to hit... including tiny targets located next to big objects with better contrast. Works pretty good even w/o 'scoop-up' brackets. You can stabilize the FLIR on target area from quite a distance before you can PTRK. Now, when close enough, priority to IR Mav and see if the missile's seeker can lock on your target. Instead of undesignating and using the Mav slewing, I prefer to simply keep my priority on Mav and do a quick 'Cage/Uncage' and see if the seeker locks on correct target. If not, get a little closer and cycle 'Cage/Uncage' again. When I do the cycling, I don't wait till the seeker completes the travel to bore, just a quick cycle. It works good for me. It helps a lot to have the Mav's seeker zoomed to 'narrow' way before the handoff.

Without the FLIR... pain in the butt. It's doable though. With one target only, no problem. With multiple targets in the same area, I always approach in a shallow dive making sure that after the first missile has been fired, the next missile's bore is roughly pointed at the target area. Then, it's just a quick slew...  It would be very helpful if we could handoff the stabilized position from the first missile to Hornet's MC, so the following missiles would uncage right to it, instead of bore LOS. Or... When slewing the first missile, all the other ones follow and be ready...

Edited September 4, 2021 by Gripes323

[Hammer1-1]

Honestly Id say the best way to do it is just markpoints....or I think since its only an ATFLIR issue, just use the Litening pod instead.

[84-Simba]

Sorry for not having made that track, been on tour the past couple of months (finally ...)

I'll retry it and post a short track in the next couple of days.

[AstonMartinDBS]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:00 PM, shagrat said:

Now, there are to options. 1) change the designation and Cage/uncage the MAV to slave to the new point (useful if you switch between Markpoints or prearranged waypoints with different targets) or 2) with focus still on the MAV screen, press NoseWheelSteering/undesignate once to remove the INS designation and then depress and hold(!) the TDC while slewing the MAV seeker over the T-55. Releasing TDC depress will command the MAV seeker to attempt a lock.

That works great - as long as ATFLIR is in INR mode. But the MAV seeker isn't slewable when the ATFLIR is in SCENE or AUTO mode, because the MAV re-slaves continuously to the ATFLIR designation. It's impossible to brake this constant designation update/re-slave loop with undesignate, while ATFLIR is in SCENE or AUTO mode and sensor priority is on the MAV format page.

I don't think, that this is as intended, because I don't see any reason for that behaviour.

Edited November 18, 2021 by AstonMartinDBS

[MTM]

I’ve been following this topic and I have found that the solutions mentioned work great when playing on a 2D monitor, but they don’t work when I try them in VR (Reverb G2). In 2D, I can slew the MavF seeker no problem, but using the same procedure in VR, no force on earth can get it to slew. That’s been my experience at least. 
 

Has anyone else tested it in 2D vs VR? If it’s only happening to me then I’m sure I did something stupid that I haven’t figured out yet. Wouldn’t be the first time!