30mm Ammo

[mrsteel]

I saw in another thread that the ammo for the 30mm is some kind of a dual purpose round, I've been having a hard time finding info on it so I'm wondering is this what ammo the Apache carries? Can it carry other types as well? What are the capabilities of the ammo it carries? 

[AlphaOneSix]

30mm x 113

M789 HEDP (High Explosive Dual Purpose) It's basically a baby HEAT round

M788 TP (Target Practice) Just a solid slug of steel and aluminum that is designed to fly like an M789.

[Mad Dog 762]

This is a completely different round than the 30mm round the GAU-8 in the A-10 carries.  The round used by the Apache is a lower velocity round and does not have a depleted uranium kinetic penetrator like the A-10 rounds, so don't expect it penetrate the armor of a modern MBT.  In effect, I imagine it will be much like the 30mm round on the Black Shark.  

Edited September 6, 2021 by Mad Dog 762

[Wags]

Dear all,

 

We plan M788 Target Practice and M789 HEDP.

 

Kind regards,

Wags

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, Wags said:

Dear all,

 

We plan M788 Target Practice and M789 HEDP.

 

Kind regards,

Wags

Are there any plans on implementing the fragmention effect to co-inside with the release of the Apache? If not the gun isn't really working at it's full potential. 

[NineLine]

3 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Are there any plans on implementing the fragmention effect to co-inside with the release of the Apache? If not the gun isn't really working at it's full potential. 

Fragmentation across DCS is something we want to do, but I am not sure it can be done in time for the AH-64D release. Thanks.

[OPEC]

6 hours ago, NineLine said:

Fragmentation across DCS is something we want to do, but I am not sure it can be done in time for the AH-64D release. Thanks.

That would be killer. Literally.

Edited September 8, 2021 by OPEC

[Nomatic]

Hey @NineLine, the new 30MM showcase seems to showcase some fragmentation…. Care to speculate? 

[NineLine]

I dont know of any fragmentation modelling currently, although they have snuck things in on me before, but I am unaware of any right now.

[Enduro14]

new infantry in that video????

[Lurker]

11 hours ago, NineLine said:

I dont know of any fragmentation modelling currently, although they have snuck things in on me before, but I am unaware of any right now.

 

Could it simply be High Explosion area damage? (As a way to simulate fragmentation modeling?)

[jubuttib]

On 9/7/2021 at 2:07 AM, Mad Dog 762 said:

This is a completely different round than the 30mm round the GAU-8 in the A-10 carries.  The round used by the Apache is a lower velocity round and does not have a depleted uranium kinetic penetrator like the A-10 rounds, so don't expect it penetrate the armor of a modern MBT.  In effect, I imagine it will be much like the 30mm round on the Black Shark. 

FWIW, the 30x165mm round used the by the Russians on the Mi-24P, Ka-50, Su-25T, Mi-28 etc. is ballistically closer to the 30x173mm GAU-8 round than to the 30x113mm M230 round on the Apache. Projectile masses are very close to equal (about 390-400 grams for both) and muzzle velocities are about 1 010 m/s for the GAU-8 and 980 m/s for the 2A42 on the Black Shark.

 

The Russian rounds though as far as I know don't feature depleted uranium penetrators, so aren't quite as effective, and I don't know what specific round is modeled for the Ka-50 AP round. The figures I've seen for PGU-14/B (GAU-8), M789 (M230) and two Russian AP rounds, 3UBR6 and 3UBR8, were as follows:

 

PGU-14/B (depleted uranium penetrator): ~58 mm RHA 60° 1000 meters (not exact because I was looking at a graph, which also showed close to 71mm at 500 meters)

M789 (shaped charge + shrapnel): 25.4 mm RHA 50˚NATO 500 Meters (theoretically, since it's a shaped charge, distance shouldn't affect the penetration that much)

3UBR6 (35KhGS structural steel penetrator): 18 mm RHA 60° 1000 meters (22mm at 500 meters)

3UBR8 (tungsten alloy penetrator): 35 mm RHA 60° 1000 meters (not sure how much at 500 meters, but should be several mm more)

 

EDIT: But yeah, just because the diameter of a round is 30 mm doesn't mean they're comparable. The .22 rimfire and 5.56x45mm NATO rounds both have a 5.7mm diameter bullet (the 5.56 refers to the land diameter in the rifling), but one of them has more than 10x the muzzle energy and over twice the muzzle velocity...

 

EDIT2: Size comparison of the rounds in question (slight editing artifacts, because I removed a bunch of rounds not relevant, scale is correct):

Edited September 23, 2021 by jubuttib

[MoarDakka]

A lot of older publications I've seen referred to a 30x113mm M799 HEI shell but maybe it never saw mainstream service with the Army because it's hardly mentioned these days.

I doubt it will appear in DCS but there has been recent work on a 30x113mm airburst shell for use by the M230 and M230LF. Right now it has the designation XM1211 HEP (high explosive proximity).

Orbital-ATK was testing a 30x113mm HEI-T shell a few years ago but I don't know if it has seen any more widespread use. I do wonder why the US Army never specified an ammo mix that included tracer for the AH-64. It seems like tracers would be beneficial in some scenarios especially when the Army took more of an interest in helicopter vs helicopter combat in the late '80s.

[Remco]

3 hours ago, MoarDakka said:

A lot of older publications I've seen referred to a 30x113mm M799 HEI shell but maybe it never saw mainstream service with the Army because it's hardly mentioned these days.

I doubt it will appear in DCS but there has been recent work on a 30x113mm airburst shell for use by the M230 and M230LF. Right now it has the designation XM1211 HEP (high explosive proximity).

Orbital-ATK was testing a 30x113mm HEI-T shell a few years ago but I don't know if it has seen any more widespread use. I do wonder why the US Army never specified an ammo mix that included tracer for the AH-64. It seems like tracers would be beneficial in some scenarios especially when the Army took more of an interest in helicopter vs helicopter combat in the late '80s.

The ground based version of the M230 by OATK =/= the M230 on the Apache. All these ammo types you mentioned are designed for the ground based M230, or other 30mm guns. Now while the Apache 30mm can be fed other brands of 30mm (OATK, ADEN, DEFA), that's only for emergency use and it won't run that well, not to mention be a lot heavier. In reality Apache's only get stocked with General Dynamics HEDP and TP rounds (Which are a lot more expensive because of the ultralight casing material and they're specifically made the the Apache's M230).

Can you take the 30mm DEFA rounds from a M2000 and feed them into the Apache and will they work? Yes. Is it a good idea? No, unless you're stuck on a French FARP in Europe and have a bunch of hostiles heading your way right now and it's all they have in stock.

[MoarDakka]

7 hours ago, Remco said:

The ground based version of the M230 by OATK =/= the M230 on the Apache. All these ammo types you mentioned are designed for the ground based M230, or other 30mm guns. Now while the Apache 30mm can be fed other brands of 30mm (OATK, ADEN, DEFA), that's only for emergency use and it won't run that well, not to mention be a lot heavier. In reality Apache's only get stocked with General Dynamics HEDP and TP rounds (Which are a lot more expensive because of the ultralight casing material and they're specifically made the the Apache's M230).

Can you take the 30mm DEFA rounds from a M2000 and feed them into the Apache and will they work? Yes. Is it a good idea? No, unless you're stuck on a French FARP in Europe and have a bunch of hostiles heading your way right now and it's all they have in stock.

I've seen press releases for the XM1211 that specified both the M230 and the M230LW (which is the current ground based variant) and older Powerpoint slides for the LW30mm Airburst program that specifically mentions usage on the Apache. Right now the interest seems to be fielding it for the M230LF on that new Stryker air defense variant but it seems there is/was interest in using it on the Apache as well.

The older M799 was definitely intended for the M230, from what I can tell it looks like the Army preferred to procure just the M789 instead.

I tried to attach a slide from one of those Powerpoints but I can't seem to make it work for some reason. Maybe because I'm still too new here.

[Remco]

2 minutes ago, MoarDakka said:

I've seen press releases for the XM1211 that specified both the M230 and the M230LW (which is the current ground based variant) and older Powerpoint slides for the LW30mm Airburst program that specifically mentions usage on the Apache. Right now the interest seems to be fielding it for the M230LF on that new Stryker air defense variant but it seems there is/was interest in using it on the Apache as well.

The older M799 was definitely intended for the M230, from what I can tell it looks like the Army preferred to procure just the M789 instead.

I tried to attach a slide from one of those Powerpoints but I can't seem to make it work for some reason. Maybe because I'm still too new here.

Correct, M799 HEI was indeed intended for the Apache, while it was tested it was never fielded. At least not by the US, UK or Dutch, I don't know about other countries, but I doubt anybody uses them since GD doesn't produce them anymore.

Also just because something is marketed to be used on the Apache doesn't mean it's used to the Apache, sales pitches for weapon systems are not reliable sources . For example people will swear up and down here on the forums that the gun ROF should be 650 rpm because that's how it's advertised by its producer, when in reality they are always ran at 550-570 rpm.

[MoarDakka]

4 minutes ago, Remco said:

Correct, M799 HEI was indeed intended for the Apache, while it was tested it was never fielded. At least not by the US, UK or Dutch, I don't know about other countries, but I doubt anybody uses them since GD doesn't produce them anymore.

Also just because something is marketed to be used on the Apache doesn't mean it's used to the Apache, sales pitches for weapon systems are not reliable sources . For example people will swear up and down here on the forums that the gun ROF should be 650 rpm because that's how it's advertised by its producer, when in reality they are always ran at 550-570 rpm.

Maybe it was de-rated at some point for reliability reasons?

Yes the advertisements and publications can definitely get stuff wrong. Janes and a few others listed the muzzle velocity of the XM1211 as 1,105 m/s which even accounting for the longer barrel of the M230LF seems impossible. I think they got it mixed up with the muzzle velocity for the one for the 30x173mm airburst cartridge.

I guess time will tell if they plan on integrating the XM1211 or any other new 30mm ammo types on the AH-64. Seems like it could be pretty devastating if the fire control system could be made to accommodate it.

[Remco]

10 minutes ago, MoarDakka said:

Maybe it was de-rated at some point for reliability reasons?

Correct, HEI was not considered reliable enough.

10 minutes ago, MoarDakka said:

I guess time will tell if they plan on integrating the XM1211 or any other new 30mm ammo types on the AH-64. Seems like it could be pretty devastating if the fire control system could be made to accommodate it.

We're not getting any anachronistic weapon systems like APKWS since the Apache represented in game is a 2005-2010 model, so I doubt we'd get any new post-2010 gun ammo. Reality is back in that we, and every other country I know off operating Apaches, only fielded M789 (and M788) so that's probably all we get.

I also still hold my doubts about the Apache M230 being able to handle the apparent charge of the XM1211, but as I explained before, in a wartime emergcy on a foreign farp without GD ammunition we'll forcefeed it anything, it was specifically designed back in the day to be able to eat european made excisting 30mm for that reason, just less reliably.

[MoarDakka]

I think I got the attachment to work. This is a few years old so I don't know how it much relates to the current XM1211 but it shows it was something they were looking at.

I don't expect any of this to appear in the DCS module it's just interesting in the context of the future of the AH-64.

[Rogue Trooper]

Remember, whilst the Russian round looks close to the A-10 round, they are quite different animals.

The A-10 round is a depleted uranium round, the incredibly dense atomic structure of depleted uranium gives the bullet shocking inertia through its amazing weight, a truly armour piercing inertia.

The shoulder of the A-10 cartridge looks like it sits only a little higher than the Russian round, but believe me, this small difference coupled with a 30mm diameter round is a massive increase in gunpowder capacity, which equates to greater velocity exiting the barrel.

But off course the A-10 round is heavier due to its density so it needs this additional powder to push the bullet up the barrel until it exits. Upon leaving the barrel the A-10 bullet may roughly equal the velocity of the Russian round, but it is the weight of the bullet that carries the destructive power. Velocity is only one indicator to a rounds firepower, the other is weight of bullet.

The A-10 round is king of the 30 mike-mikes, The Russian round is still a nice compromise that will kill almost anything it touches.

But I am really looking forward to the Apaches fast full arc of fire 30mm. Fast and deadly, A real quick draw in a tight situation and able to sustain accuracy.

F%£K yeah!

Edited October 21, 2021 by Rogue Trooper

[jubuttib]

9 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

The shoulder of the A-10 cartridge looks like it sits only a little higher than the Russian round, but believe me, this small difference coupled with a 30mm diameter round is a massive increase in gunpowder capacity, which equates to greater velocity exiting the barrel.

But off course the A-10 round is heavier due to its density so it needs this additional powder to push the bullet up the barrel until it exits. Upon leaving the barrel the A-10 bullet may roughly equal the velocity of the Russian round, but it is the weight of the bullet that carries the destructive power. Velocity is only one indicator to a rounds firepower, the other is weight of bullet.

Based on the specs I've seen (which includes some variance) the muzzle velocity for the GAU-8 using the PGU-14/B API rounds (the ones with the depleted uranium core) is about 1 010 m/s, while the muzzle velocity of the Russian 3UBR6 round is around 970 m/s and the 3UBR8 round is around 1 120 m/s. Projectile weights have been quoted as 395 grams for the PGU-14/B, 400 grams for the 3UBR6 round and 304 grams for the 3UBR8 round.

So in pure terms of muzzle energy the PGU-14/B is the highest, with the 3UBR6 getting to 93% and 3UBR8 APDS getting to 95% of it. So in terms of pure ballistics at the muzzle they're all very close, with the 30x173mm being the most powerful.

Of course bullet design has a huge effect on ballistics at range (drag mostly), and the design has a massive effect on the armor penetration performance, with the density of the depleted uranium penetrator being a huge boon, as well as its incendiary and self-sharpening nature. The tungsten alloy penetrator on the 3UBR8 has neither of these properties.

EDIT: On the variance, I've seen the quoted weight for the PGU-14/B vary between 395 grams and 425 grams depending on the manufacturer and time period of the study, so apparently not all of them are quite equal, similarly the muzzle velocity has been quoted between 980 m/s up to 1 020 m/s... So these are all ballpark numbers anyway. PGU-14/B is the most powerful cartridge, but they're very close ballistically, and the penetration performance of the PGU-14/B is way better than on the two Russian rounds I have seen data for.

Edited October 22, 2021 by jubuttib

[Rogue Trooper]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:21 AM, jubuttib said:

Based on the specs I've seen (which includes some variance) the muzzle velocity for the GAU-8 using the PGU-14/B API rounds (the ones with the depleted uranium core) is about 1 010 m/s, while the muzzle velocity of the Russian 3UBR6 round is around 970 m/s and the 3UBR8 round is around 1 120 m/s. Projectile weights have been quoted as 395 grams for the PGU-14/B, 400 grams for the 3UBR6 round and 304 grams for the 3UBR8 round.

So in pure terms of muzzle energy the PGU-14/B is the highest, with the 3UBR6 getting to 93% and 3UBR8 APDS getting to 95% of it. So in terms of pure ballistics at the muzzle they're all very close, with the 30x173mm being the most powerful.

Of course bullet design has a huge effect on ballistics at range (drag mostly), and the design has a massive effect on the armor penetration performance, with the density of the depleted uranium penetrator being a huge boon, as well as its incendiary and self-sharpening nature. The tungsten alloy penetrator on the 3UBR8 has neither of these properties.

EDIT: On the variance, I've seen the quoted weight for the PGU-14/B vary between 395 grams and 425 grams depending on the manufacturer and time period of the study, so apparently not all of them are quite equal, similarly the muzzle velocity has been quoted between 980 m/s up to 1 020 m/s... So these are all ballpark numbers anyway. PGU-14/B is the most powerful cartridge, but they're very close ballistically, and the penetration performance of the PGU-14/B is way better than on the two Russian rounds I have seen data for.

 

Indeed, the A-10 has a sole purpose of being a tank killer, sheer armour penetration is its purpose and it does so with glorious fabulous gusto! The rate of weight at point delivery is just shocking! But that is the Gatling guns purpose! 

The Russian AP round is for sure weaker but deadly to heavily armoured vehicles when dropped onto the engine vents of any western main battle tank. The cyclic rate of western European/eastern European weapons is slower, so less penetrating power is placed at a single point during any given second of the engagement.

No, for me it is more the HE explosive round that is horrifying with the Russian round, It is impressive with the hind due to its rate of fire, but it is the KA-50 and 2A42 that hits the sweet spot for me. That ability to move a Kannon that would qualify as an anti armour field gun in early WWII with such ease, to hydraulically drop and swing its barrel out onto a target is very impressive.

When Ed expands the explosive capabilities of all HE rounds, the 2A42 will just be lethal!      I love the 2A42, my love for it is the wrong love.... it is a bad love!

The Russians seem to pack their brass with either slow burning powder or a lot of powder as there is always a massive muzzle flash... perhaps they are allowing for wartime manufacturing tolerances in powder load, whatever they are doing they do not allow the bullet to slow down in the barrel.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Rogue Trooper