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Silence Aim-54 Shoot with TCS-STT [WCS ON]


Nazgul 1-2 -Kjell-

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I've seen this too, was going to put this in the queue to do some reproducibility testing, but I was under the impression this was reported.... I hope it has been. 

 

Which is unfortunate because the TCS/radar Slaved mode is a unique, very situational, feature of the tomcat.

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@DoorMouse

When I know that implementing the TCS-STT is legitimate, I would use it a lot more. Provided it is not a mistake that the target does not receive AN RWR warning.

 

But what I also wonder is whether it is normal for the Aim-54 to be steered to the finish like a Fox1 or should it behave like in Boresight mode? [WCS/Radar ON]


Edited by Nazgul 1-2 -Kjell-
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So, from what I've been told is you can fire a PH active with a TCS lock and it will maddog it with the correct angle and elevation.

 

It is also potentially a way to guide a Fox1 because you are slaving the radar AZ/EL to the camera track. SAHR in Flood mode doesn't need ranging Information, so the question is can the CW illumination be used in this way for the Sparrow (which I think not?), And can the Phoenix follow it's Pulse Doppler illumination when Slaved to the TCS (Which I believe maybe not... It needs ranging info) it could be the case that it too just goes PH active automatically

 

But I've not heard an SME talk about either of these. 

 

You probably should still get a lock warning... But potentially not. It depends on the radar duty cycle, and if that mode is the correct illumination. 

 

 


Edited by DoorMouse
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9 hours ago, DoorMouse said:

so the question is can the CW illumination be used in this way for the Sparrow (which I think not?)

 

Even if it is possible, what would be the benefit of this? It would still triger a CW warning (radar missile inbound) on the target's RWR if it picks up the CW illumination.


Edited by QuiGon

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8 hours ago, QuiGon said:

 

Even if it is possible, what would be the benefit of this? It would still triger a CW warning (radar missile inbound) on the target's RWR if it picks up the CW illumination.

 

If you lost radar lock. Often at less than 30nm the TCS does a better job of tracking than the radar if they go to the notch. The Camera will track the target just fine- Fire off a phoenix in their direction to keep them from going Hot. for one. 

Its a neat feature, but very very situational.... frankly I have no idea how its supposed to exactly work. We would need an SME


Edited by DoorMouse
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1 hour ago, DoorMouse said:

If you lost radar lock. Often at less than 30nm the TCS does a better job of tracking than the radar if they go to the notch. The Camera will track the target just fine- Fire off a phoenix in their direction to keep them from going Hot. for one. 

 

There is flood mode for that.


Edited by QuiGon

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In all cases should the target of an AIM-54 get a warning as long as it has an RWR. Either the missile is in SARH or ARH but both gives a lock and engagement warning.

 

A "TCS Phoenix LOS shot" is when you have the radar slaved to the TCS which makes the AIM-54 launch hot along the TCS line of sight, giving an active missile warning.

 

The AIM-7 can do the same but the WCS needs to be in on to allow for the CW illuminator to go active at launch, this is not flood but the CW illuminator following the TCS line of sight if the radar is slaved to TCS.

 

Apart from this there are also TCS-STT modes where you have the radar slaved to the TCS but also lock on in rate or range (PD or P). These behave like normal STT but the angles are tracked using the TCS and not the radar but the range and rate come from the radar. This is useful if the target is hard to track with radar for whatever reason (jamming, clutter).

This is not currently implemented but would be activated by going half-action in radar mode on the TCS and highlighting the correct return on the DDD and the going full action resulting in that kind of STT.

 

The silent AIM-54 shots are bugs but we're hopeful that fixes we're implementing in the next patch will solve this.

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7 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

In all cases should the target of an AIM-54 get a warning as long as it has an RWR. Either the missile is in SARH or ARH but both gives a lock and engagement warning.

 

A "TCS Phoenix LOS shot" is when you have the radar slaved to the TCS which makes the AIM-54 launch hot along the TCS line of sight, giving an active missile warning.

 

The AIM-7 can do the same but the WCS needs to be in on to allow for the CW illuminator to go active at launch, this is not flood but the CW illuminator following the TCS line of sight if the radar is slaved to TCS.

 

Apart from this there are also TCS-STT modes where you have the radar slaved to the TCS but also lock on in rate or range (PD or P). These behave like normal STT but the angles are tracked using the TCS and not the radar but the range and rate come from the radar. This is useful if the target is hard to track with radar for whatever reason (jamming, clutter).

This is not currently implemented but would be activated by going half-action in radar mode on the TCS and highlighting the correct return on the DDD and the going full action resulting in that kind of STT.

 

The silent AIM-54 shots are bugs but we're hopeful that fixes we're implementing in the next patch will solve this.

Thank you, and awesome this is getting resolved soon!

 

Also great information on the CW/flood when Slaved to the TCS, that is so cool!  I'm looking forward to the TCS STT modes being implemented

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  • 4 months later...
Am 13.1.2022 um 16:41 schrieb DoorMouse:

Sorry to Necro this topic but I believe it is still unresolved. We had a number of fixes in the patch after these discussions but it was found this RWR bug still works under certain conditions 

I have made the experience that the phoenix in a PD-STT where the RDR is subordinate to the TCS and the TCS can also pursue the goal independently, the AIM-54 is still led even if the PD-STT is broken as long as the TCS-STT is maintained...   [I will try the days to be able to provide Tacview and other recordings!]

 

@DoorMouse@Heatblur


Edited by Nazgul 1-2 -Kjell-
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@IronMike

 

Ok so here's my best understanding. It's been a while so I do forget the exact steps.

Last time we all discussed this several months ago (around when ED fixed the aim54 desync issue) there was also a Fix applied in the patch notes which said it resolved some of the issues with the TCS slaved shots... However others re-tested this after the patch and found that the Phoenix still does not give an RWR warning in situations where you fire a TCS slaved shot with your radar on standby (or off) and... I think subsequently break lock. 

I'll have to see if I can get you the right steps, but it was my understanding this was known by you guys, and we all reported it here afterwards.

Another separate point, the radar modes and firing conditions are pretty complex compared to other aircraft and most people don't understand them.... Hell I think I probably have a few points I'd like clarified. If you guys could make a table of possible Phoenix firing modes that would be incredibly helpful and informative. Maybe call out where discrepancies between the current implementation and reality might be (PD PH Active, and the DCS 10 mile limitations... for instance)

For this point... Could you confirm: ANY shot made with TCS slaved will go active off the rails just like a PSTT shot, correct? But they should be getting an RWR warning I'd presume... There is no way to guide the Phoenix in silently. 

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8 hours ago, DoorMouse said:

For this point... Could you confirm: ANY shot made with TCS slaved will go active off the rails just like a PSTT shot, correct? But they should be getting an RWR warning I'd presume... There is no way to guide the Phoenix in silently. 

Correct to the latter. Radar slaved to PD-STT is not active shot however.

 

EDIT: @DoorMouse check the post from @Naquaii a couple posts above where he explains the different possibilities including TCS. But no matter how you twist it: the phoenix should always give a launch warning, either like a SARH or ARH respectively. No warning at all, is definitely a bug.

 

EDIT 2: It would be important to know what RWR does not give a warning. That is which module's RWR. Or if any RWR, etc...


Edited by IronMike

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We need to see exact proof of this, because else we will be on a wild goose chase. If ppl claim it is happening, it isn't enough. They may not get an RWR warning due to several circumstances, and just assume it is because of this or that... So we need some video, some track, something that shows exactly what is happening on both sides. As it was debugged and fixed initially, and so far nothing from our tests indicated otherwise. Not saying it doesn't happen anymore at all, could be that we missed something, etc. But we need more than claims now, please. Thank you!


Edited by IronMike

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As previously mentioned the AIM-54 is always radar guided in some fashion so there will always be radiated energy that could trigger an RWR.

But it also depends on the receiving RWR so we need to narrow this down further like Ironmike says.

It could be that the missile is in a blindspot of the RWR or it could be lag or it could be a bug deeper than those we've seen and fixed previously ourselves.

 

What need to be understood about using the AIM-54 slaved to the radar is that it's still mostly the same modes that are being used only that the TCS provides line of sight (angles) for the radar instead of the radar itself. So if you fire with the radar in slaved P-STT it will be an active launch, if you fire with the radar in slaved PD-STT it will be a semi-active shot like normal PD-STT. The only exception is radar slaved to TCS with WCS in standby where the AIM-54 gets pre-launch line of sight information via the umbilical but it is still an active shot.

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Appreciate the replies and info. I had this understanding but I think its important it be said by you guys so we can point to it... Again there is a lot of confusion with people who don't own the Tomcat module regarding how it operates. Hell, im learning things right now and I have more hours than I care to speak about in it. 

7 hours ago, IronMike said:

Correct to the latter. Radar slaved to PD-STT is not active shot however.

 

2 hours ago, Naquaii said:

What need to be understood about using the AIM-54 slaved to the radar is that it's still mostly the same modes that are being used only that the TCS provides line of sight (angles) for the radar instead of the radar itself. So if you fire with the radar in slaved P-STT it will be an active launch, if you fire with the radar in slaved PD-STT it will be a semi-active shot like normal PD-STT. The only exception is radar slaved to TCS with WCS in standby where the AIM-54 gets pre-launch line of sight information via the umbilical but it is still an active shot.

I thought you cannot PD-STT and provide Range information while it is TCS Slaved, and that once you slave it to TCS all shots come off the rail active. That is very interesting!  Honestly I'd love a chart of all possible launch conditions and their behavior, I think a lot of people benefit from it.  Hell, if I created it could you correct it? 

-----------------

Regarding the TCS switch not providing RWR warnings - When we did this test last fall we were using F16s and F18s as the targets, flying straight and level. It was not a blind spot issue or isolated to a specific airframe. Completely understand that you need specifics and some tracks/videos. I'll try to do that this week and get back to you guys. 

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16 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

I thought you cannot PD-STT and provide Range information while it is TCS Slaved, and that once you slave it to TCS all shots come off the rail active. That is very interesting!  Honestly I'd love a chart of all possible launch conditions and their behavior, I think a lot of people benefit from it.  Hell, if I created it could you correct it?

The radar can still be locked while slaved to TCS in that the radar calculates range and the TCS keeps it on the target in azimuth and elevation. Honestly can't remember off the top of my head if we've managed to implement locking the radar while slaved to TCS yet, I need to check that. But this is a bit of an edge case as all other cases (including no radar lock even with pd-stt selected) except HoJ would be active shots.

If you make a chart I could have a look for sure. 🙂


Edited by Naquaii
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6 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

@Naquaii

While you're here- Any plans to implement Home on Radiation for the AIM-54- IE it will seek out airborne active radars. I had heard a former Tomcat A RIO talking about that as a mode in a different discussion. 

Yes, that will be possible when we've implemented the effects of jammers on the AWG-9 and the plan is to also implement HoJ when we have that. That said that'll still be limited to what's possible in DCS so unfortunately I don't think it's possible to have an active AIM-54 switch to another target that is jamming other than the initially attacked target like what was described in the Tomcast. (Great episode btw.)

It will be more along the lines of the HoJ capability of other missiles in DCS.


Edited by Naquaii
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2 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

Yes, that will be possible when we've implemented the effects of jammers on the AWG-9 and the plan is to also implement HoJ when we have that. That said that'll still be limited to what's possible in DCS so unfortunately I don't think it's possible to have an active AIM-54 switch to another target that is jamming other than the initially attacked target like what was described in the Tomcast. (Great episode btw.)

It will be more along the lines of the HoJ capability of other missiles in DCS.

 

Just to be clear - we are talking about Home on Radiation, not Home on Jam. Right?  If they are actively locking you or have their search radars on, the phoenix will act like a HARM 

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Just now, DoorMouse said:

Just to be clear - we are talking about Home on Radiation, not Home on Jam. Right?  If they are actively locking you or have their search radars on, the phoenix will act like a HARM 

I'm talking about home on jam in this case but home on jam could be seen as a subset of home on radiation I guess. We're still talking the missile guiding onto a jamming source emitting on the own radars frequency. It can't look for frequencies it's not using itself as it's not listening to those. So no, not a HARM by any definition.

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