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F/A-18C vs. F-16C Radar (BVR)


bob030
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Sorry to burst bubbles but you are comparing apples to oranges  and the f-16 radar and the F-18 radar are different. (duh we knew that) Is the F-18 radar under performing. Maybe but we will come back to that. Is the F-16 reader over performing. In short No actually the opposite could be argued. (whhhuuut, your just and F-16 fanboy).  So let look at a few important factors. Mission purpose of the F-16 vs the F-18, Navy procurement vs Airforce procurement, and what time frame version the modules are replicating.
 
The F-16 was a platform designed for air to air enguagements with adaptability to perform air to ground. (ok following) using the radar to track and lock ground targets was not the primary function of the f-16 radar and a lower value of performance in this aspect taken into account when designing it. (ok ok but we are talking air to air) This meant focus of design and out come performance were aimed at the air to air side. Insert F-18 into the discussion here. Mission of the F-18 was Fleet defense. The F-1 4 which was still very much in service at the time of F-18 procurement was the Air superiority intercepter with an extremely powerful air to air radar. The navy's focus was more multirole anti shipping capabilities. (ok ok we are following) So the ability for target solutions using the radar into air to ground and air to sea were given a much greater performance focus in development due to the Navy's needs. This intern affected its top end air2air performance. (ok this makes little sense but im not sold) Ok so now we have navy doctrine and airforce doctrine vaguely covered and giving a little context as to why different radar packages (68 vs 73) would be developed for different aircraft and not just its a the airplane look different.
 
So what year time frame is ED developing the F-18 to mimic. This is relevant on two points. Is it under performing and is the f-16 radar better at air to air. Ok so you might be already thinking this dude already said the F-16 radar had more of an Air2Air focus than the F-18 radar he is bias and going to F-16 fan boy again. stay with me please. the F-16 is being modeled on the 2006/2007 post upgrade information. This is greatly argued on what capabilities the F-16 should receive in the F-16 forums. (your in the F-18 forum fanboy get to the point) Ok so during this time the F-16 was already upgraded using the version 5 (v5) upgraded radar. Part of that 2006/2007 over all aircraft upgrade the radar was upgraded to the version 9 (v9). This means the F-16 radar in dcs is actually under performing if they were trying to be time specific to the F-16. (booo its already OP be happy with what you have garden snake boy). So I use this to give context to why the radars are performing a different values. Now your probably like ok thats the F-16 now get back to the F-18 because im sure it has been upgraded too. If you don't address this than your just being a Bias fan boy. I say fair point.
 
So 2010 is relevant to the Navy an navy aircraft procurement and sustainability. The navy had already been procuring Super hornets by this time. The navy needed to decide on where it wanted to put its money and the long term future of the legacy hornets. (after all the aircraft still had a lot of life left on its expected service life ) The Super hornet already came with vastly more powerful and upgraded radars and other capailities so the navy was debating two key factors. First do we spend money on buying more super hornets and just phase out the legacy hornets earlier  that originally planned. number two and this is the sad truth for the F-18 fans. in 2010 the navy acknowledge that if they were going to sustain flying the F-18c legacies they needed to upgrade the aircraft and actually referenced the fact that the airforce upgraded its f-16 radars at a far more frequent rate and if they were keep the legacy that they needed to to upgrade. The navy did end up upgrading some of its fleet as the plan was that as they phased out the legacys from the navy they would be transferred to the  Marines to continue flying in effort to get the most bang for the buck out of the plane they already owned.  ( Damn it fanboy I don't like what your saying but you might be making some points here) 
 
So in short is the F-18 radar under performing in air to air. yeah possibly but with out knowing what information ED is using what time frame they are aiming to replicate I couldn't give you the definitive F-18's radar needs to perform better. But the F-16 air to air radar when compared to the F18 air to air radar has always been superior because the airforce upgraded more often and put more designs requirements on the manufacturer  than the navy did. This isn't saying the navy made bad decision. the navy's performance requirements and mission requirements and rolls are different and the Navy wasn't buying an air superiority aircraft it was being a multirole fleet defense aircraft. 
 
I hope this helps some of you realize that the radars are different, they always were.  they had different designs and upgrade requirements. The f-16 radar has always been better in air to air. not a fanboy perspective just a reality based on they serve different purposes. 
 
cheers I hope this helps


So you're saying that the Viper radar *must* be better because the jet was initially designed for A/A and had more versions?

There is literally no data in this post, it's pointless.

It's not physically possible for the Viper to have a more powerful radar when the talking about mechanically scanned arrays. The aircraft is just too small. The radar is focused on MPRF with no selectable HPRF.
It will always have a lower maximum detection range.
This is still true even if the 16 had the v9.

The v9 would bring the 16 much closer to the 18, but that's about it. The Hornet just outright has a more powerful radar with better signal processing and multisource integration which the Viper just does not have. There's a lot more to it but I don't have the time right now.

Maybe you should come back and try again when you know a bit about each radar system, or just how different radars work in general.




Mobius708

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as I understand the premise of the argument from the wall of text boils down to
"since it was not built with a specific focus due to doctrine it is worse than one that did"

but then there is the 15E, which is known to be able to SAR map and go off of that to target stuff (which means its really good with the A/G radar, since neither the hornet nor the viper can do that)

 

but then according to your argument it should be worse than the viper A/A due to that ?

I am no RF engineer, but I figured that this stuff is not binary, even linear in tradeoffs, also there is a lot of text but no data, as in, not even guesses as to what params the radars have

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1 hour ago, Hulkbust44 said:


 

 


So you're saying that the Viper radar *must* be better because the jet was initially designed for A/A and had more versions?

There is literally no data in this post, it's pointless.

It's not physically possible for the Viper to have a more powerful radar when the talking about mechanically scanned arrays. The aircraft is just too small. The radar is focused on MPRF with no selectable HPRF.
It will always have a lower maximum detection range.
This is still true even if the 16 had the v9.

The v9 would bring the 16 much closer to the 18, but that's about it. The Hornet just outright has a more powerful radar with better signal processing and multisource integration which the Viper just does not have. There's a lot more to it but I don't have the time right now.

Maybe you should come back and try again when you know a bit about each radar system, or just how different radars work in general.




Mobius708
 

 

so Mobius im actualy quite comfortable with my qualifications and knowledge of these systems and very much these systems specially.  The fact that i did not cite references for you was done on purpose. you could do away with the insults in the future but please feel free to contact me directly. 

 

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Simba11:

Sorry to burst bubbles but you are comparing apples to oranges  and the f-16 radar and the F-18 radar are different. (duh we knew that) Is the F-18 radar under performing. Maybe but we will come back to that. Is the F-16 reader over performing. In short No actually the opposite could be argued. (whhhuuut, your just and F-16 fanboy).  So let look at a few important factors. Mission purpose of the F-16 vs the F-18, Navy procurement vs Airforce procurement, and what time frame version the modules are replicating.

 

The F-16 was a platform designed for air to air enguagements with adaptability to perform air to ground. (ok following) using the radar to track and lock ground targets was not the primary function of the f-16 radar and a lower value of performance in this aspect taken into account when designing it. (ok ok but we are talking air to air) This meant focus of design and out come performance were aimed at the air to air side. Insert F-18 into the discussion here. Mission of the F-18 was Fleet defense. The F-1 4 which was still very much in service at the time of F-18 procurement was the Air superiority intercepter with an extremely powerful air to air radar. The navy's focus was more multirole anti shipping capabilities. (ok ok we are following) So the ability for target solutions using the radar into air to ground and air to sea were given a much greater performance focus in development due to the Navy's needs. This intern affected its top end air2air performance. (ok this makes little sense but im not sold) Ok so now we have navy doctrine and airforce doctrine vaguely covered and giving a little context as to why different radar packages (68 vs 73) would be developed for different aircraft and not just its a the airplane look different.

 

So what year time frame is ED developing the F-18 to mimic. This is relevant on two points. Is it under performing and is the f-16 radar better at air to air. Ok so you might be already thinking this dude already said the F-16 radar had more of an Air2Air focus than the F-18 radar he is bias and going to F-16 fan boy again. stay with me please. the F-16 is being modeled on the 2006/2007 post upgrade information. This is greatly argued on what capabilities the F-16 should receive in the F-16 forums. (your in the F-18 forum fanboy get to the point) Ok so during this time the F-16 was already upgraded using the version 5 (v5) upgraded radar. Part of that 2006/2007 over all aircraft upgrade the radar was upgraded to the version 9 (v9). This means the F-16 radar in dcs is actually under performing if they were trying to be time specific to the F-16. (booo its already OP be happy with what you have garden snake boy). So I use this to give context to why the radars are performing a different values. Now your probably like ok thats the F-16 now get back to the F-18 because im sure it has been upgraded too. If you don't address this than your just being a Bias fan boy. I say fair point.

 

So 2010 is relevant to the Navy an navy aircraft procurement and sustainability. The navy had already been procuring Super hornets by this time. The navy needed to decide on where it wanted to put its money and the long term future of the legacy hornets. (after all the aircraft still had a lot of life left on its expected service life ) The Super hornet already came with vastly more powerful and upgraded radars and other capailities so the navy was debating two key factors. First do we spend money on buying more super hornets and just phase out the legacy hornets earlier  that originally planned. number two and this is the sad truth for the F-18 fans. in 2010 the navy acknowledge that if they were going to sustain flying the F-18c legacies they needed to upgrade the aircraft and actually referenced the fact that the airforce upgraded its f-16 radars at a far more frequent rate and if they were keep the legacy that they needed to to upgrade. The navy did end up upgrading some of its fleet as the plan was that as they phased out the legacys from the navy they would be transferred to the  Marines to continue flying in effort to get the most bang for the buck out of the plane they already owned.  ( Damn it fanboy I don't like what your saying but you might be making some points here) 

 

So in short is the F-18 radar under performing in air to air. yeah possibly but with out knowing what information ED is using what time frame they are aiming to replicate I couldn't give you the definitive F-18's radar needs to perform better. But the F-16 air to air radar when compared to the F18 air to air radar has always been superior because the airforce upgraded more often and put more designs requirements on the manufacturer  than the navy did. This isn't saying the navy made bad decision. the navy's performance requirements and mission requirements and rolls are different and the Navy wasn't buying an air superiority aircraft it was being a multirole fleet defense aircraft. 

 

I hope this helps some of you realize that the radars are different, they always were.  they had different designs and upgrade requirements. The f-16 radar has always been better in air to air. not a fanboy perspective just a reality based on they serve different purposes. 

 

cheers I hope this helps

 

Well ... no. I actually didn't want to reply because I find flame wars annoying. Also I hate reading long texts. All I wanted to know is if I suck or if the way the hornet radar works might not 100% be as intended (in the game).

 

I'm sure that ED peeps doing the best they can to get flight models, weapons and radars as close the real fighters as they can. Nevertheless I believe there is not much available data publicly available to get it spot on. Also there might be considerations involved to balance the different aircrafts such that i.e. one turns faster, the other climbs better and the third has the better radar. At the end of the day it is software. Some devs might produce bugs the others misundertood the feature. Who knows what the reason is.

 

One more thing: I really enjoy the enthusiasm of all the people here. Some, however referncing Wikipedia and thinking ED is wrong i.e. about the range of the AMRAAM or the rate of turn of some aircrafts and demand ED to fix it. I really enjoy the discussions here and how ppl search, find and present valueable information. Sometimes though the tone is way to harsh.

 

vor 47 Minuten schrieb Simba11:

so Mobius im actualy quite comfortable with my qualifications and knowledge of these systems ...

 

 

What is your qualification?


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On 9/9/2021 at 2:04 PM, bob030 said:

Hey,

 

I am new to this forum and this is also my first post so hi to everyone.

I played the F-15 in Lock-On many years ago and came back to DCS as soon as I could afford reasonable hardware, mostly flying F/A-18C. I took my time to study the F/A-18C in trainings and missions and jumped into multiplayer when felt ready. I really love the Hornet.

 

There is one thing though I noticed that seems to be a bit odd to me. I know that there are many exprerienced people knowing their aircraft well but when going up against F-16 I almost always loose.

When even beeing able to get LNS it looses track quite often. Sometimes I only see the the contacts on DL and they shoot at me before I even can get a radar contact. Also if I am lucky, obtain a lock and firing AIM-120C at RMax i get hit first even if I am in a better position energetically (higher/faster). So in general from my position the F-18C radar seems to be much weaker (maybe just more realistic) than that of the F-16.

So what I did is getting the F-16 module and for me it really seems like the F-16 obtains locks earlier and looses it less often.

 

This is not about dogfighting, just BVR. Do you have made the same experience? Is the F-18C buggy, is it more realistic or is the F-16 OP? Does anyone know how the F/A-18C performs against the F-16C in BVR in real life?

How do you perform against the F-16s in DCS?

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

You should separate radar detection performance and getting killed.

 

F-18 can detect F-16s around 45 miles which is plenty enough. 40kft+ 40 mile shots are relatively low pK against a bandit that is not totally clueless, even if fired supersonic. When you have link the detection ranges are pointless anyway, because you can bug targets far enough to shoot. You can prepare for the fight based on Link16 information, you don't need a bug. You only need to bug the target shortly before firing or ideally before pole maneuvers (especially for less experienced pilots managing radar is difficult while maneuvering).

If you're getting killed in high altitude, long range BVR while you have link support it has everything to do with poor tactics / execution and nothing to do with radar performance. The 18 has good enough radar detection ranges against relevant fighter types to fight on an even footing (not sure how far you can detect Jeffs but I'd expect similarly 40 mile+ just like the 16s). Obviously you will not have an even footing on energy since the 15/16 just dumpsters the 18 in terms of that.

 

Also FYI following the DLZ is worthless. Those ranges are all bullshit.

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36 minutes ago, Simba11 said:

so Mobius im actualy quite comfortable with my qualifications and knowledge of these systems and very much these systems specially.  The fact that i did not cite references for you was done on purpose. you could do away with the insults in the future but please feel free to contact me directly. 

 

Yeah, you're comfortable with not knowing anything, which is why you are not citing references on purpose - fact, not insult 😄 

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8 minutes ago, Spectre1-1 said:

as I understand the premise of the argument from the wall of text boils down to
"since it was not built with a specific focus due to doctrine it is worse than one that did"

but then there is the 15E, which is known to be able to SAR map and go off of that to target stuff (which means its really good with the A/G radar, since neither the hornet nor the viper can do that)

 

but then according to your argument it should be worse than the viper A/A due to that ?

I am no RF engineer, but I figured that this stuff is not binary, even linear in tradeoffs, also there is a lot of text but no data, as in, not even guesses as to what params the radars have

No the F-15E has an entirely different design of radar in it. and is not affected the same. the F-18 radar system was designed to preform air to sea functions at a higher accuracy. as it performs anti shipping roles. the F-18 radar was not designed to launch 120's and the radar was never tested for such air to air specifications prior to it being installed on the aircraft. if you google about the navy looking to update the F-18's radar you'll see it was never a strong performing air to air fadar. people are confusing the super hornets radar with the legacy one. and i just found out our DCS F-18 is modeled off a 2004-2005 version of the F-18 with some 2011 bits sprinkled in linke HMD. with that information i can assure you that the Legacy F-18 radar was not as powerful as the F-16 radar that the game is trying to mimic. i know F-18 fans dont want to here it but thats just what it is. 

 

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1 hour ago, bob030 said:

 

Well ... no. I actually didn't want to reply because I find flame wars annoying. Also I hate reading long texts. All I wanted to know is if I suck or if the way the hornet radar works might not 100% be as intended (in the game).

 

I'm sure that ED peeps doing the best they can to get flight models, weapons and radars as close the real fighters as they can. Nevertheless I believe there is not much available data publicly available to get it spot on. Also there might be considerations involved to balance the different aircrafts such that i.e. one turns faster, the other climbs better and the third has the better radar. At the end of the day it is software. Some devs might produce bugs the others misundertood the feature. Who knows what the reason is.

 

One more thing: I really enjoy the enthusiasm of all the people here. Some, however referncing Wikipedia and thinking ED is wrong i.e. about the range of the AMRAAM or the rate of turn of some aircrafts and demand ED to fix it. I really enjoy the discussions here and how ppl search, find and present valueable information. Sometimes though the tone is way to harsh.

 

 

What is your qualification?

 

none hahahaha. but dont worrie about me just im sure if you poke around dcs enough you might come across something the will allude to why i might think i know what im talking about. but i will leave it at that. I have tried to explain it the best way i can. people need to stop googling the best possible version of the f-18 and actually look for the version they have. thats all i can say and i am fine if people want to say im an idot and i dont know what im talking about lol in all seriousness its probably better that way 

 

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No the F-15E has an entirely different design of radar in it. and is not affected the same. the F-18 radar system was designed to preform air to sea functions at a higher accuracy. as it performs anti shipping roles. the F-18 radar was not designed to launch 120's and the radar was never tested for such air to air specifications prior to it being installed on the aircraft. if you google about the navy looking to update the F-18's radar you'll see it was never a strong performing air to air fadar. people are confusing the super hornets radar with the legacy one. and i just found out our DCS F-18 is modeled off a 2004-2005 version of the F-18 with some 2011 bits sprinkled in linke HMD. with that information i can assure you that the Legacy F-18 radar was not as powerful as the F-16 radar that the game is trying to mimic. i know F-18 fans dont want to here it but thats just what it is. 
 
Lmao.

Also, initially the Rhino and Hornet shared the 73'



Mobius708

none hahahaha. but dont worrie about me just im sure if you poke around dcs enough you might come across something the will allude to why i might think i know what im talking about. but i will leave it at that. I have tried to explain it the best way i can. people need to stop googling the best possible version of the f-18 and actually look for the version they have. thats all i can say and i am fine if people want to say im an idot and i dont know what im talking about lol in all seriousness its probably better that way 
 
The version we have actually is the best legacy Hornet. This specific aircraft was the second to last legacy produced, and the last one to go into service.

Mobius708

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5 hours ago, Simba11 said:

so Mobius im actualy quite comfortable with my qualifications and knowledge of these systems and very much these systems specially.  The fact that i did not cite references for you was done on purpose. you could do away with the insults in the future but please feel free to contact me directly. 

 

Mover Lemoine has also stated in a video of his that the Hornet's radar is slightly better than the Vipers, and he was speaking of the A+ Hornet, not the APG73 Hornet. He is a Viper guy by trade as well so he's knows both aircraft.

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6 hours ago, Simba11 said:

No the F-15E has an entirely different design of radar in it. and is not affected the same. the F-18 radar system was designed to preform air to sea functions at a higher accuracy. as it performs anti shipping roles. the F-18 radar was not designed to launch 120's and the radar was never tested for such air to air specifications prior to it being installed on the aircraft. if you google about the navy looking to update the F-18's radar you'll see it was never a strong performing air to air fadar. people are confusing the super hornets radar with the legacy one. and i just found out our DCS F-18 is modeled off a 2004-2005 version of the F-18 with some 2011 bits sprinkled in linke HMD. with that information i can assure you that the Legacy F-18 radar was not as powerful as the F-16 radar that the game is trying to mimic. i know F-18 fans dont want to here it but thats just what it is. 

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. 

 

IRL F-16 MPRF range is about 22nmi. (Look-Up / Head-On / 50% Pd / ~5 m2 target)

 

image.png

 

8FdvFWRk

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On 9/17/2021 at 3:35 PM, Beamscanner said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. 

 

IRL F-16 MPRF range is about 22nmi. (Look-Up / Head-On / 50% Pd / ~5 m2 target)

 

image.png

 

8FdvFWRk

 

 

Um yeah, thats for an APG-66 for the F16 (ours has an APG-68V5), For an APG-65 for the F18, (ours has a APG-73), and finally for an APG-63 on the F15, of which, well many variations and upgrades... 

 

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The Viper we have is a frankenviper with mixing and matching between the 2007-2008 software tape versions. ED probably didn't have enough data on the V9 so they went for the V5, so it doesn't matter if a 2007 F-16 should have the V9, we ended up with the V5.   

 

What an aircraft was designed for in the 80s and what sort of capabilities it ended up with  in the 2000s has nothing to do with each other. The original A model Viper was a fighter bomber with the main focus being on BFM performance, daylight WWR fighting under VFR condition with guns and Winders. How is that relevant? Do you think that because of this, the Viper is worse for IFR operations in the game than the Hornet? Quite the contrary, the Viper has actual ILS integrated for one. The original design goal has virtually nothing to do if you're comparing two heavily upgraded variants.
 

On 9/17/2021 at 12:30 PM, Simba11 said:

The F-1 4 which was still very much in service at the time of F-18 procurement was the Air superiority intercepter with an extremely powerful air to air radar.

Not quite. The original Hornet had two goals; replace the A-7 as a bomber and replace the F-4 on the Midways for the FAD role. This meant that it could self escort and function as a multi role fighter. But this also isn't relevant.
 

 

On 9/17/2021 at 12:30 PM, Simba11 said:

The Super hornet already came with vastly more powerful and upgraded radars and other capailities so the navy was debating two key factors

Already? That's only true from Block 2, the original Block 1 Rhinos initially all used the APG-73, same radar as the Hornets. 

What happened in 2010 with the Rhinos again has absolutely no releveance to the topic at hand.  rhino 73.jpg

On 9/17/2021 at 12:30 PM, Simba11 said:

The navy did end up upgrading some of its fleet as the plan was that as they phased out the legacys from the navy they would be transferred to the  Marines to continue flying in effort to get the most bang for the buck out of the plane they already owned

The radar of a Legacy Hornet in the Navy and in the USMC was the same; the 73.

 

On 9/17/2021 at 12:30 PM, Simba11 said:

referenced the fact that the airforce upgraded its f-16 radars at a far more frequent rate and if they were keep the legacy that they needed to to upgrade

Maybe tell that to Mover, who flew them. "The F-16’s APG-68 is not a terrible radar by any means, but it is technology that desperately needs upgrading."  https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/hornet-vs-viper-part-four/

 

 

On 9/17/2021 at 12:30 PM, Simba11 said:

But the F-16 air to air radar when compared to the F18 air to air radar has always been superior because the airforce upgraded more often and put more designs requirements on the manufacturer  than the navy did


How does this even make logical sense? If the Chair Force has a car that can go at 50 km/h and the Navy has one that can go at 150 km/h which is better? The Navy's car, right? Let's say that the Navy upgrades the car and now it can do 300 km/h. The upgrade program is over in a year, and all the cars are upgraded to the same spec. If the Air Force in return upgrades their car every year and make it do 5 km/h more after every upgrade, in 10 years it got 10 times as many upgrades. Does that also mean that it 10 times faster than the Navy's? 
 

Quote

"they had different designs and upgrade requirements"


This is also completely irrelevant because we're not comparing the two platforms throughout their entire service history but at two very specific points in time. Therefore the upgrade frequency or initial design requirement in the 80s or whatever else you brought up has absolutely no relevance to the topic. The only relevant thing here is the performance of the modelled version of the APG-73 in the timeframe that they are making and the performance of the APG-68 in the timeframe that they are making. Upgrades have nothing to do with it because we're examining a specific point in time.
 

Quote

"Also there might be considerations involved to balance the different aircrafts such that i.e. one turns faster, the other climbs better and the third has the better radar. At the end of the day it is software."
 

Good lord, no. If that happens, I'll uninstall DCS for good and submerge my SSD in salt to purify it.

On 9/17/2021 at 2:39 PM, bob030 said:

What is your qualification?

On 9/17/2021 at 4:42 PM, Simba11 said:

none hahahaha

 

On 9/17/2021 at 2:25 PM, Simba11 said:

so Mobius im actualy quite comfortable with my qualifications and knowledge of these systems and very much these systems specially

Also, what's up with this? Both can't be true at the same time so one of these messages must have been untrue.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, WobblyFlops said:

The Viper we have is a frankenviper with mixing and matching between the 2007-2008 software tape versions. ED probably didn't have enough data on the V9 so they went for the V5, so it doesn't matter if a 2007 F-16 should have the V9, we ended up with the V5.   

 

What an aircraft was designed for in the 80s and what sort of capabilities it ended up with  in the 2000s has nothing to do with each other. The original A model Viper was a fighter bomber with the main focus being on BFM performance, daylight WWR fighting under VFR condition with guns and Winders. How is that relevant? Do you think that because of this, the Viper is worse for IFR operations in the game than the Hornet? Quite the contrary, the Viper has actual ILS integrated for one. The original design goal has virtually nothing to do if you're comparing two heavily upgraded variants.
 

Not quite. The original Hornet had two goals; replace the A-7 as a bomber and replace the F-4 on the Midways for the FAD role. This meant that it could self escort and function as a multi role fighter. But this also isn't relevant.
 

 

Already? That's only true from Block 2, the original Block 1 Rhinos initially all used the APG-73, same radar as the Hornets. 

What happened in 2010 with the Rhinos again has absolutely no releveance to the topic at hand.  rhino 73.jpg

The radar of a Legacy Hornet in the Navy and in the USMC was the same; the 73.

 

Maybe tell that to Mover, who flew them. "The F-16’s APG-68 is not a terrible radar by any means, but it is technology that desperately needs upgrading."  https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/hornet-vs-viper-part-four/

 

 


How does this even make logical sense? If the Chair Force has a car that can go at 50 km/h and the Navy has one that can go at 150 km/h which is better? The Navy's car, right? Let's say that the Navy upgrades the car and now it can do 300 km/h. The upgrade program is over in a year, and all the cars are upgraded to the same spec. If the Air Force in return upgrades their car every year and make it do 5 km/h more after every upgrade, in 10 years it got 10 times as many upgrades. Does that also mean that it 10 times faster than the Navy's? 
 


This is also completely irrelevant because we're not comparing the two platforms throughout their entire service history but at two very specific points in time. Therefore the upgrade frequency or initial design requirement in the 80s or whatever else you brought up has absolutely no relevance to the topic. The only relevant thing here is the performance of the modelled version of the APG-73 in the timeframe that they are making and the performance of the APG-68 in the timeframe that they are making. Upgrades have nothing to do with it because we're examining a specific point in time.
 

Good lord, no. If that happens, I'll uninstall DCS for good and submerge my SSD in salt to purify it.

 

Also, what's up with this? Both can't be true at the same time so one of these messages must have been untrue.

 

 

great response well researched. one thing to note. lookout years of service for mover and which block F-16 he flew and which years and which block F-18 he flew. the F-16 he few and references performance wise was accurate and his account for comparison is insightful. The F-18's he were flying and the upgrades he hints too why comparing the two aircraft is not always apples to oranges. as I stated before I don't know what year version of the F-18 this thing is being modeled after. some one said 2004. If you compare a 2004 F-18 legacy to a 2007 bock 50 you will find researching the topic becomes a lot more difficult. but its nice to see that the file for the an/apg 66 radar was cited as a solution. hahahaha but I am done with the topic. I achieved my goal and that was for people (forum posters)  to actually look more in-depth as to what they were talking about and just just googling the best version of the F-18 legacy and trying to actually figure out what the specs of year and version represented in the game. Cheers to all and happy gemming

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24 minutes ago, Simba11 said:

block F-16 he flew and which years and which block F-18 he flew

He flew Block 25s, Block 30s and Block 42s and he left the Air Force in 2012 so he must have had experience with not only the V5 but also the V9 version of the 68. As for the Hornet, most of his videos have an A+ adversary aircraft. According to the USMC Hornet pilot AMA on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/5nzex5/usmc_fa18a_c_pilot_here_ama/) the A+ and the C are very similar to one another, aside from minor differences. (The old fuel display instead of the digital IFEI for example.) Nothing indicates that the radar was substantially different between the C and the A+. Some switchology was definitely different but that's just the result of having different OFPs. (Newer ones have easier ways of switching between RWS and TWS for example, that came in with 21X https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/266773-main-a-a-rws-to-tws-mode-change-missing/) The DCS Hornet is 13C, which I believe is also somewhat of a Frankenstein module and the plethora of simplified and unimplemented systems make it even weirder in the Hornet.

 

43 minutes ago, Simba11 said:

but its nice to see that the file for the an/apg 66 radar

Well, it definitely refutes some of your claims it just doesn't help the topic at hand without additional info. If you consider the relative detection range increase from the 66 and the 65, it can be used to approximate the performance of the radars. Without that, you still have basic physics to contend with like how can a radar from the same generation with a smaller antenna, wider beamwidth and MPRF waveform only outperform a radar with a larger antenna and more narrow beamwidth that is also capable of HPRF and is selectable? The 68 V5 only has HPRF in certain modes that aren't implemented in DCS therefore we can't specifically talk about them nor are they relevant in RWS.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb WobblyFlops:

Good lord, no. If that happens, I'll uninstall DCS for good and submerge my SSD in salt to purify it.

 

I think you got me wrong here. What I mean is that I wouldn't introduce a silver-bullet-aircraft because it would ruin the game and that weapons, radars, jammers and performance data should be adjusted within the limits. i.e. introduce fighter X with version 4 and not 6 or there are two sources with different turn-rates so use pessimistic one because it would be on level with the rest of the "modern" fighter modules in dcs and would be fair and funny for everyone.  So simply decide in favor of fairness of no (pecise) data is available.

All this is what I would do.

 

But nevermind. This discussion doesn't seem to be fruitful since it quickly turned into "which is the best fighter" like "which operating system is the best" or "which religion is better" making the F-16 fanboys come over and highjacking the thread like 12 year olds.

 

Meanwhile, with the few useful comments, I could sort some issues out. Thank you for that, I'm out.


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3 hours ago, Simba11 said:

I achieved my goal and that was for people (forum posters)  to actually look more in-depth as to what they were talking about and just just googling the best version of the F-18 legacy and trying to actually figure out what the specs of year and version represented in the game. Cheers to all and happy gemming

 

You haven't achieved anything.  All of this research had been done well before you ever started posting here.

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13 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

 

Um yeah, thats for an APG-66 for the F16 (ours has an APG-68V5), For an APG-65 for the F18, (ours has a APG-73), and finally for an APG-63 on the F15, of which, well many variations and upgrades... 

 

  

Im aware.. If you read my linked post, you'd see I never called it the -73. Nor did I say this was the doc to use for the -73 or -63 ranges in DCS.

 

 

 

On the topic of Viper radar vs hornet radar, its useful to cite a study provided to the U.S. Government. In this we see the drastic difference between the old viper radar and the old Hornet radar. its not difficult to conclude that delta between the two upgrades (-68 and -73) would likely remain similar unless a drastic change was made (new HPRF waveform, larger antenna, etc).. which never occurred. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Simba11 said:

but its nice to see that the file for the an/apg 66 radar was cited as a solution. hahahaha but I am done with the topic. I achieved my goal and that was for people (forum posters)  to actually look more in-depth as to what they were talking about and just just googling the best version of the F-18 legacy and trying to actually figure out what the specs of year and version represented in the game.

 

You provided no evidence, and made illogical claims. 

 

Physics doesn't care what the intended use of your radar was. Saying the navy cared more about anti-shipping doesn't mean that air to air capabilities had to be reduced. A larger antenna, a higher duty cycle, and a larger pulse integration count (aspects of HPRF) will always prove superior to a smaller antenna using MPRF (lower duty cycle, low pulse integration). 

 

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. 

 

IDK who marked my post as a solution. But my post clearly shows the difference a HPRF/larger antenna play on detection range.

 

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58 minutes ago, Beamscanner said:

  

Im aware.. If you read my linked post, you'd see I never called it the -73. Nor did I say this was the doc to use for the -73 or -63 ranges in DCS.

 

 

 

On the topic of Viper radar vs hornet radar, its useful to cite a study provided to the U.S. Government. In this we see the drastic difference between the old viper radar and the old Hornet radar. its not difficult to conclude that delta between the two upgrades (-68 and -73) would likely remain similar unless a drastic change was made (new HPRF waveform, larger antenna, etc).. which never occurred. 

 

 

So, I know you are aware, but at the same time. APG-66 is only MPRF. While the APG-68V5 has a HPRF waveform/LRS seach mode for long range detection (and no ED its not interleaved). So its a bit apples to oranges to cite the APG-66 in this case when comparing it to the APG73, or 65 for that matter. Nor does that chart show what the MPRF detection ranges for the other two radars. 

 

I mean the APG-66 was a great radar for its day, but it was entirely built around the concept of a day only WVR fighter that would need great all aspect performance, and who cared if it could see much further than the aim-9L it was designed to help employ.


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1 hour ago, Beamscanner said:

HPRF was quite limited in the -68 and not utilized in RWS/TWS. 

 

Its comparing apples to apples if we focus on RWS/TWS/STT detection ranges. The modes you can actually fight with. 

 

For this same reason, Im not talking about -73's VS mode. 

 

Well, currently HPRF is in the ED viper... 

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Wow, why dont we all just accept what we have modelled in the sim is what it is and use it accordingly? Does it matter that its not identical to RL performance? ( Which is a moot point as we dont know what RL performance is ......Not that anyone here would know anyway, as all that stuff is classified.....) 

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1 hour ago, markturner1960 said:

Wow, why dont we all just accept what we have modelled in the sim is what it is and use it accordingly

Because this is a simulator that is supposed to replicate real life performance as closely as possible?

 

1 hour ago, markturner1960 said:

Does it matter that its not identical to RL performance?

Of course it does. The sole purpose of a simulator is to make it possible to replicate the real aircraft as closely as possible. If they don't care, they can just make stuff up as we go. Which is perfectly valid and it would be fun for a lot of people but that's not the goal of DCS. Maybe if you prefer that kind of gameplay you should start a development studio where you model the cockpit and make up the systems. The plus side of this is that this allows you to model virtually any aircraft in the world, after all, if you don't care about actual performance and systems, you can just make it seem realistic based on public perception. F-22 vs Su-57 here we come.

 

1 hour ago, markturner1960 said:

Not that anyone here would know anyway, as all that stuff is classified.

You can't classify physics, you can classify specific systems. While the exact empirically derived performance numbers of these radars are classified, radar theory isn't. It's taught all around the world in universities and there are dozens of highly detailed, mathematically exact and very useful textbooks that describe the scientific background of airborne radar systems in a quantitative and qualitative way. If certain parameters are known and assumed to be correct, such as waveform, antenna size and aperture, peak power and other various values, you can approximately decide the performance of a certain system compared to another. If one is objectively inferior by these metrics, it will perform worse by a given margin.

 

To make matters worse for you, these radars have enough related data, whitepapers, SME statements to make a well educated guess on their approximate performance. And if you have data on a previous system and you know how much the new one improved performance you can guess the new system's performance as well. To make matters worse what people are talking about here can be empirically verified very easily to be wrongly implemented by ED, such as the Viper interleaving HPRF in RWS mode. 

 

While this process certainly won't result in good enough approximation for real life intel gathering purposes, it will be much more in line with real specs, and it's a better researched and epistemologically correct way of approximating the performance of these systems.

 

 

If you're a casual player and don't care about realism you also wouldn't care enough to approach the topic with such a highly anti intellectual attitude, so it's safe to assume that your concerns have to do with pewpew airquaking metagaming balance and performance, don't they?

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🙄 umm....Chill Mr Wobblyflops........firstly, I am not advocating some kind of air quake version of DCS, nor do I want one. And that in no way is what we currently have. I am a serious player and flight simmer of over 20 years, dating back to Falcon4 Superpak who flys online in a next to real procedures squad, with real pilots and people who have RL input from ex and current Hornet pilots.....I am simply saying that what we have is clearly based on what ED are allowed / able to simulate from the data they have access to....so no point constantly bellyaching about stuff thats not going to change. They have been very open that certain systems and areas of the sim are not hyperreal......

 

You can winge all you like, but its not going to change, so my point was, just enjoy it for what it is. Its still a pretty f*cking good approximation of the real thing, I am sure and extremely enjoyable to learn and fly. Look out the window a bit more my friend, there is a real world out there.........

 

 

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