Intel 12th gen (Alder Lake) processors: price and benchmarks, and DDR5 memory performance

[LucShep]

 

On 11/14/2021 at 9:00 PM, Vitallini said:

I guess what I wrote made it sound like it was better than it is, but considering it’s so early and not the best ram they are using…ah well I don’t know. I guess it’s more about not having to change the motherboard in the near future for me. Anyway, It’s ddr4 for me still. I spent the money saved from choosing  a cheaper motherboard and no new ram on a wd 850 1tb m.2 drive and a new aio cooler. I think m going to stop reading about ddr5 ram now. It’s done. 

LOL Stop ruminating on the subject, don't stress it. You did the right choice as a consumer.

Yes, it sucks to be forced to choose a motherboard that is only going to work with one or the other choice (either DDR4 or DDR5).
But, right now, DDR5 simply does not offer anything of true relevance to compensate its massive price increase, versus DDR4.
Likewise, to feel forced to go on the (much) more expensive route, just to ride on a promise of improved DDR5 performance in a year or so, is plainly nonsensical.
Intel just very recently announced that their future Z790 will also support DDR4 RAM, it seems there is not enough faith in DDR5 just yet in terms of performance vs cost.

If still with doubts.... if it helps, everybody else seems to agree with your choice, some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wQ9MGrTvwc&t=316s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvo__2taug&t=407s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIN8lLhSqmg&t=1058s
 

TLDR: DDR5. Is. Not. Worth. It.

Edited November 16, 2021 by LucShep

[Paramedic10]

Alright, so I started doing some testing. I swapped out the 9900k and swapped in Z690-E D5 mobo, 12900k, crucial 64gb DDR5-4800 @ 5000mhz, and EVGA 3090 KINGPIN.

I have my setup currently at 5.5ghz for the best two P-cores, which would matter most for DCS. KINGPIN with max power slider, +100mhz core, +800 mhz memory.

Unfortunately, I didn't pick up any noteworthy FPS gains in 2D or VR. The CPU frametime was better, the overall experience in VR with a Reverb G2 was subjectively a bit smoother, but average FPS on Hoggit Syria at War with PD 1.0, VR resolution 100% was about 50ish on the supercarrier, about 5 average FPS more than my 9900k setup. For comparison, I was able to hit 600 points single core on CPU-Z with my 9900k, and I hit 882 so far with the 12900k, so the single core performance gains are MASSIVE from this data point.

Oh, I was seeing as much as 38-40gb of system RAM being used. (holy $hit!)

I think the major limiter here now is GPU. Even with a 3090 KPE, it seems to still be GPU limited. I'll continue to mess around with some tweaks, but the gains I got from going from Ivy Bridge to Coffee Lake were insane , and going to Alder Lake seems to have caught up to what the game engine can actually use as far as IPC improvements. Maybe with coming Vulkan API improvements, we will see better GPU resource use and multi-core enhancements that will help, but I am skeptical. 

A note on DDR5 - seems to be working fine for me. I was lucky and got a 2x32gb kit at microcenter on release day for alder lake. I paid $449. MY OPINION: It isn't totally "Not. Worth. It". Having a D5 capable motherboard which should support 12th and 13th gen, and knowing how fast technology on D5 already seems to be moving forward, it isn't a bad buy. Plus, I had a 2x16gb kit that was no longer made. I would have had to mix and match models which I hate doing, or buy 64gb of DDR4 again which doesn't make much sense as the value of D4 will start to fall off hard once D5 beings to take hold. Sure, in a year, the tech will be much better, and D5 mobo owners and just upgrade at that point, and have a more future proofed system that allows expansion for 13th gen too under D5. Just my honest opinion.

Also, Decent DDR4 64gb kits that are 3600-4000mhz right now are still around $325-375 or even more. D5 isn't double the price, I actually paid about 28% more for the same amount of mem capacity. I was able to overclock by changing two settings first try to 5000 mhz. Sure, my latency is higher, but I haven't noticed any actual difference in gaming. 
 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Paramedic10

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

I am waiting for some high speed DDR5 before i start building. (Trident Z5 6400 CL36 or something similar). 

But it's nice to have the other parts lying around and not fret about supply. Got to keep them in the closet though because i really want to start putting it all together 

Not in hopes for better performance in DCS  btw , but for other games mainly. (and bragging on the internet of course)

[TAW_Impalor]

I've just given myself three weeks do decide between DDR4 or 5. That's how long to wait for EK waterblock to arrive.

[Full Refund]

Posting as another data point for folks.  Can't say if my experience is typical or not. 

I just upgraded from an i7-8700k to an i5-12600k.  Installed Windows 11.  I'll spare you the routine tale of fiddling with BIOS and driver updates to get everything to work.  It's always a minor pain and I only had to clear the BIOS once.    But when I finally got everything working . . . DCS is fantastic.  I'm seeing a 20-30% increase in FPS playing in VR with the same GPU.  It was good before but now it is butter smooth.  None of my settings have changed - just the CPU and the OS.  

I've got a teensy tiny OC on the CPU to 5.0 Ghz but otherwise I'm running mostly stock settings.  My hardware is listed below.  I'm running the Vive Pro 2 in Extreme (4896x2448, 120 Hz) and Steam SS at 150%.  PD of 1.0. 

I opted to stick with the same DDR4 RAM I was using in my old machine and don't regret it.  This way I only paid for the CPU and a MOBO (Gigabyte Z690 Aero).  (Okay, I bought a new CPU cooler because I wanted to.)  But PSU, RAM, and GPU carried over from my old machine.  

Although I still don't know why my port engine quit 23 minutes into my last Mossie mission.  Running at a a boost of 8 and 2600 RPM.  Engine just quit.  Of course I was flying low over the channel and managed to lose control.  I just had time to think, "Crap, I'm gonna die."

[dureiken]

8 hours ago, Full Refund said:

Posting as another data point for folks.  Can't say if my experience is typical or not. 

I just upgraded from an i7-8700k to an i5-12600k.  Installed Windows 11.  I'll spare you the routine tale of fiddling with BIOS and driver updates to get everything to work.  It's always a minor pain and I only had to clear the BIOS once.    But when I finally got everything working . . . DCS is fantastic.  I'm seeing a 20-30% increase in FPS playing in VR with the same GPU.  It was good before but now it is butter smooth.  None of my settings have changed - just the CPU and the OS.  

I've got a teensy tiny OC on the CPU to 5.0 Ghz but otherwise I'm running mostly stock settings.  My hardware is listed below.  I'm running the Vive Pro 2 in Extreme (4896x2448, 120 Hz) and Steam SS at 150%.  PD of 1.0. 

I opted to stick with the same DDR4 RAM I was using in my old machine and don't regret it.  This way I only paid for the CPU and a MOBO (Gigabyte Z690 Aero).  (Okay, I bought a new CPU cooler because I wanted to.)  But PSU, RAM, and GPU carried over from my old machine.  

Although I still don't know why my port engine quit 23 minutes into my last Mossie mission.  Running at a a boost of 8 and 2600 RPM.  Engine just quit.  Of course I was flying low over the channel and managed to lose control.  I just had time to think, "Crap, I'm gonna die."

Glad to here that, just bought a 12600k, I actually have a 8600k@5.1ghz. Was your 8700k OC too ?

Is that necessary to go to Win11 for 12600k ?

 

thanks

[LucShep]

7 hours ago, dureiken said:

Glad to here that, just bought a 12600k, I actually have a 8600k@5.1ghz. Was your 8700k OC too ?

Is that necessary to go to Win11 for 12600k ?

 

thanks

No, it isn't that necessary to have Win11, as Win10 is equally fine for 12th gen Intel - performance is the same.

Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake: Windows 11 vs. Windows 10 Performance

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by LucShep

[TAW_Impalor]

I have my eyes on this kit (~400€), but no motherboard list it or anything similar as compatible... Does anyone have it working with 12xxx or know for sure that it will?

[LucShep]

46 minutes ago, impalor said:

I have my eyes on this kit (~400€), but no motherboard list it or anything similar as compatible... Does anyone have it working with 12xxx or know for sure that it will?

Doesn't directly responde to your question, but I'd say it brings interesting information:

https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/luke-hill/ddr4-vs-ddr5-intel-core-i9-12900k-testing/

Ideally you'll want DDR4 RAM at the lowest latency possible (but at 3200Mhz speed or higher).
The best you may find is 4000mhz CL14 (14-15-15-35, Gskill Trident-Z Royal Elite) but it's rare to find and it's stupid expensive, not really worth the cost for the small gains over other premium kits (Samsung B-die) with speed and latency of 3200Mhz CL14 (14-14-14-36) or 3600Mhz CL16 (16-16-16-36), such as Gskill Trident-Z kits with these timings.

Edited November 17, 2021 by LucShep

[BitMaster]

I just got the Gskill 64GB kit  3200-14-14-14-34 1.35v and with 1.4v it now is a 3600-16-16-16-36 kit with mostly the same sub settings as my original 3600-16-16-16-36-kit uses. All kits are B-die btw.

I would get the 3200 kit and oc it to 3600.  1.4v are not a downside. 4 sticks usually need a little more than 1.35v on most boards anyway to run stable.

Even if I was buying a 12thgen I would sticj with DDR4 for now and get the exact same kit. ~400€ for 64GB 3200/14 and about 500€ for the same kit with 3600/16, no LED. LED is about 45€ more for each kit.

[TAW_Impalor]

41 minutes ago, BitMaster said:

I just got the Gskill 64GB kit  3200-14-14-14-34 1.35v and with 1.4v it now is a 3600-16-16-16-36 kit with mostly the same sub settings as my original 3600-16-16-16-36-kit uses. All kits are B-die btw.

I would get the 3200 kit and oc it to 3600.  1.4v are not a downside. 4 sticks usually need a little more than 1.35v on most boards anyway to run stable.

Even if I was buying a 12thgen I would sticj with DDR4 for now and get the exact same kit. ~400€ for 64GB 3200/14 and about 500€ for the same kit with 3600/16, no LED. LED is about 45€ more for each kit.

Smart! What motherboard would you recommend? I don't care about rgb or wifi, but plan to overclock 12900k on a custom loop...

Edited November 17, 2021 by impalor

[dureiken]

14 hours ago, LucShep said:

No, it isn't that necessary to have Win11, as Win10 is equally fine for 12th gen Intel - performance is the same.

Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake: Windows 11 vs. Windows 10 Performance

 

 

Ok thanks a lot ! and was your 8700k OC at 5ghz + ? thanks

[LucShep]

5 hours ago, dureiken said:

Ok thanks a lot ! and was your 8700k OC at 5ghz + ? thanks

Sure, no problem.

The 8700K question I think that's meant at Full Refund.

Edited November 18, 2021 by LucShep

[BitMaster]

16 hours ago, impalor said:

Smart! What motherboard would you recommend? I don't care about rgb or wifi, but plan to overclock 12900k on a custom loop...

 

I think I would take the Gigabyte Aorus Pro DDR4. Asus has not a single DDR4 Z690 listed on the german Asus page. Availability may differ from country to country.

[TAW_Impalor]

5 hours ago, BitMaster said:

I think I would take the Gigabyte Aorus Pro DDR4. Asus has not a single DDR4 Z690 listed on the german Asus page. Availability may differ from country to country.

Yes, that's the one I was hoping to buy, but did not find anywhere in Europe ((. So I ordered Aorus Elite DDR4...

Edited November 18, 2021 by impalor

[BitMaster]

There you go. 

We could debate for hours what's best and what specs and fps it would get and then comes the awakening...none to buy far and wide.

and I believe with the current Covid thing going south again it can only get worse with availability.

 

 

[sam187]

10 hours ago, BitMaster said:

I think I would take the Gigabyte Aorus Pro DDR4. Asus has not a single DDR4 Z690 listed on the german Asus page. Availability may differ from country to country.

Not listed in Germany?

PRIME Z690M-PLUS D4｜Mainboards｜ASUS Deutschland

TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS WIFI D4 | Motherboards | ASUS Gloabl

Pretty happy with the TUF, coming from a Maximus X Formula / 8700k / 32GB DDR4 CL14. Also availability in Germany wasn't an issue (ordered Monday after the launch) and they still are available. 

Was sceptical that the OC features of the TUF would be more limited compared to the Maximus X, but all you need is there...

[Full Refund]

17 hours ago, dureiken said:

Ok thanks a lot ! and was your 8700k OC at 5ghz + ? thanks

My 8700k was running at 4.8 ghz.  I tried 5.0 but didn't see that much difference so I backed it off. 

As for Z690 motherboards (in the US anyway) I had luck with Newegg.

One other note.  Switching to Windows 11 isn't necessary but there are some interesting features in Windows 11 if you have Alder Lake.  Windows 10 doesn't detect treat the P-cores and E-cores differently so you can [allegedly] run into situations where a high demand task is assigned to an efficiency core.  The Windows 11 Thread Director can supposedly tell the difference and assign tasks appropriately.   

I switched to Windows 11 in the hopes of extracting the maximum from the Alder Lake design.  No issues so far but changing to a new OS is always annoying.  In hindsight I probably could have stuck with Windows 10 for a while to get a benchmark before trying 11.

 

[Gregkar]

On 11/17/2021 at 2:01 AM, Full Refund said:

Posting as another data point for folks.  Can't say if my experience is typical or not. 

I just upgraded from an i7-8700k to an i5-12600k.  Installed Windows 11.  I'll spare you the routine tale of fiddling with BIOS and driver updates to get everything to work.  It's always a minor pain and I only had to clear the BIOS once.    But when I finally got everything working . . . DCS is fantastic.  I'm seeing a 20-30% increase in FPS playing in VR with the same GPU.  It was good before but now it is butter smooth.  None of my settings have changed - just the CPU and the OS.  

I've got a teensy tiny OC on the CPU to 5.0 Ghz but otherwise I'm running mostly stock settings.  My hardware is listed below.  I'm running the Vive Pro 2 in Extreme (4896x2448, 120 Hz) and Steam SS at 150%.  PD of 1.0. 

I opted to stick with the same DDR4 RAM I was using in my old machine and don't regret it.  This way I only paid for the CPU and a MOBO (Gigabyte Z690 Aero).  (Okay, I bought a new CPU cooler because I wanted to.)  But PSU, RAM, and GPU carried over from my old machine.  

Although I still don't know why my port engine quit 23 minutes into my last Mossie mission.  Running at a a boost of 8 and 2600 RPM.  Engine just quit.  Of course I was flying low over the channel and managed to lose control.  I just had time to think, "Crap, I'm gonna die."

i am about to do exactly the same thing, going from an 8700k 5.0ghz to 12600k and keep the rest. I also fly in VR so i was a bit worried if it is going to worth it, i think you convinced me.

[Harlikwin]

Still no DDR5 ram...

[zildac]

3 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Still no DDR5 ram...

I got lucky and snagged some 4800 from Crucial in the UK. It went in about 4 hours though. Now most of it seems to be on eBay with unsurprising stupid prices.  I wanted Corsair RGB but that was never going to happen, and I have the rest of the kit here to build, so I'll go with the Crucial (plain Jane) until the speeds increase and the supply settles....

[nachomaga]

On 12/23/2021 at 5:37 PM, Gregkar said:

i am about to do exactly the same thing, going from an 8700k 5.0ghz to 12600k and keep the rest. I also fly in VR so i was a bit worried if it is going to worth it, i think you convinced me.

Almost same here. Went from 8700k to 12700k few days ago, new motherboard (Asus TUF Gaming) and new MSI AIO cooler, same DDR4 RAM. GPU still the same, Zotac 3090 Trinity. Oh, and fly in VR (Reverb G2). Still with Windows 10 (lazy to update).

I didn't fps count, but yes, there is a difference, not massive, but is noticeable. Like compare multiplayer flying with single player. For me in the 8700k single player was smoother, now with 12700k have the same feeling in MP. And in VR, each fps counts.

If I remember correctly, I had hyperthreading off, and Turbo Boost 3.0 on. I see 4,8-4,9Ghz CPU in the ASUS motherboard utility.

And I think that 3090 is working harder too, thanks to the new CPU.

Bottom line, 8700k is a fantastic CPU and I would keep it if I fly only in 2D, but in VR I think 12700k is a really good upgrade. And when ED make improvements in multi task (I think super carrier now is multi thread) is going to be perfect.

Edited December 27, 2021 by nachomaga

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

DDR5 , 32GB , 5600 to 6000 mhz now .... 700 euro's. Ouch 

[VpR81]

Came from a 6800K @ 4.2Ghz and have to say it's a huge difference for me as the 12900K boosts up to 5.3GHz. That CPU upgrade had a significant impact on my VR experience (and also on other games - all settings maxed out now), it feels like that 3090 is finally working properly now instead of getting bored all day. Can't tell if the DDR5 (Trident Z5 6000 - CL36) memory makes a difference (propably not), but i had 64GB before and do now only have 32GB and DCS runs butter smooth now, even with crowded MP session on Syria. Will definately upgrade to 64GB once the prices are more consumer friendly. Hard to tell if the new system was worth the price, i'd say rather not, but there was no holiday for me this year due to the pandemic and i just spent my holiday budget on my new system. So i guess it's ok, despite the crazy pricetag....

[QuiGon]

I upgraded from a i7 4790K and 16 GB DDR3 to a i7 12700K and 32GB DDR5 and my frames increased from 20-30 fps to 80-90 fps, when flying on servers like BlueFlag.

Edited December 28, 2021 by QuiGon