Intel 12th gen (Alder Lake) processors: price and benchmarks, and DDR5 memory performance

[Tom Kazansky]

liquid nitrogen... cool.

[Harlikwin]

3 hours ago, jagheterjan said:

I'd suggest to take those 8Ghz with a barrel of salt - https://hothardware.com/news/gigabyte-shady-8ghz-alder-lake-overclock-recordban-threat

Oh I know that was the crazy OC record. But I think solid 5.x Ghz maybe even near 6ghz might be possible for more mortals. My 9700k has a solid 5ghz of on all cores where stock "Boost" was 4.8 or 9. And intel keeps hinting 12th gen should OC well so 5.3 is stock boost so 5.5 or better seems pretty reasonable. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Elidji]

3 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I'm skeptical but let's hope so.  What is the difference in frame-time ?

 

Sorry I don't have the old numbers from 8700k but I can tell you that now in FPS VR I am always in the green for the CPU.

I am always limited by my GPU (3090).

Anyway before I couldn't play on a big multiplayer server but now I have no problems.

It's still not perfect but it's way better.

[Harlikwin]

2 hours ago, Elidji said:

Sorry I don't have the old numbers from 8700k but I can tell you that now in FPS VR I am always in the green for the CPU.

I am always limited by my GPU (3090).

Anyway before I couldn't play on a big multiplayer server but now I have no problems.

It's still not perfect but it's way better.

Well that's good, usually the opposite for me. You running win10? Overclocking?

Edited November 8, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Elidji]

8 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Well that's good, usually the opposite for me. You running win10? Overclocking?

 

I use windows 11.

I just use the automatic OC from my motherboard (Asus).

I think it puts one core to 5.1Ghz, the other are at 4.9Ghz.

I haven't messed with overclocking myself for now.

[LucShep]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:14 AM, Vitallini said:

That was what I was thinking as well, but then I wondered if early motherboards would be able to run the ddr5 ram that will be available in a few years at max speed? Anyone have any thoughts about this? As I need all the usb-ports I can get I have to buy a fairly pricey motherboard. Also I’d like to avoid switching out the motherboard just because of the hassle. 

 

On 11/6/2021 at 10:54 AM, BitMaster said:

If I had to bet I'd bet that those current Z690 boards will not accept any DDR5 module from the future...and there also is the IMC, both have to accept the RAM.

DDR5 is nice but not for now imho.

Have to agree.
At this point, DDR5 is just not worth the price gouging.
 

About this whole Intel 12th gen release.....
My conclusion after reading/watching review upon review, is more or less like I suspected - it's good and a bit better than everything else, but it's not amazing.

The i9 12900K is just not a good purchase for any kind of gaming system, no matter how many "hardcore" or "future proofing" argument comes up, or how much one enjoys entertaining that idea.
The i7 12700K and i5 12600K are the cream of the crop, consensus is clear - these two are the "most-worth-buying" in the whole line-up (best performance for the price) and against any current competitor.

Power consumption is still higher than AMD, but not that much higher in gaming and general use.
It also doesn't affect temperatures, as the tests show, so the rumours of bigger heat due to the higher consumption (versus AMD) have proven to be unfounded.
Whatever cooling solution is used to cool the AMD Ryzen 5000 CPUs, will work equally fine on equivalent Intel 12th gen CPUs (temps wise, not socket fit wise ).

The performance advantage of Intel 12th gen over AMD Ryzen 5000 is, on average, 30~40% higher in applications, which is huge.
In gaming, Intel 12th gen is also better than AMD Ryzen 5000 but with rather small gains, only some rare instances showing up to 20% better performance (than AMD), so it's not like a clean sweep here.

In any case, one thing seems pretty clear - unless you already own an older AMD Ryzen platform and going to upgrade the CPU only - there's no longer a reason to build a brand new system based on AMD Ryzen 5000 with Intel 12th being available, as it is the better choice for a new system - with a few caveats.

The DDR5 vs DDR4 performance difference is unnoticeable for gaming (bar the rare outlier), so DDR5 is not worth it at this point. Maybe a year from now it will be.

For a new gaming system, I'd get either the i7 12700K or the i5 12600K, an affordable Z690 DDR4 motherboard (say, MSI PRO Z690-A DDR4 if basic features are enough, or MSI MAG Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI DDR4 if more features are needed), and get the least expensive and available RAM dual kit for 64GB (2x 32GB) of DDR4 3200 CL14 or 3600 CL16.

And, for example, imagining someone upgrading from 6th, 7th, or 8th gen Intel, and already using a decent kit of DDR4 RAM (for example, 32GB of 3000 CL15, or 3200 CL16, or 3600 CL18) one can still use that (saving money), and still see the performance gains with that 12th Gen Intel CPU + Z690-DDR4 mobo combo upgrade.

Now it's up to AMD to fight back (we need them competing, so CPUs progress faster), there's the Ryzen CPU refresh with 3D V-Cache coming in 1st to 2nd quarter of 2022.

Edited November 9, 2021 by LucShep

[Elidji]

2 hours ago, LucShep said:

...

And, for example, imagining someone upgrading from 6th, 7th, or 8th gen Intel, and already using a decent kit of DDR4 RAM (for example, 32GB of 3000 CL15, or 3200 CL16, or 3600 CL18) one can still use that (saving money), and still see the performance gains with that 12th Gen Intel CPU + Z690-DDR4 mobo combo upgrade.

 

It's exactly what I did and you explained way better than I could !

[Vitallini]

27 minutes ago, Elidji said:

It's exactly what I did and you explained way better than I could !

Same here, I went for ddr4 lga1700 motherboard and kept my 3600mhz cl16 ram. I guess a ddr5 kit with better performance should be quite some time off. 

[sam187]

Same here, coming from a 8700k (5Ghz all cores) and 32GB DDR4 3200 CL14 I've now ordered the "12700k / Asus TUF Z690 combo".

Didn't see the added value of spending an additional 200-300€ for a DDR5 high(er)end board, 300-400€ for a 32GB DDR5 kit and 230€ more for the 12900k. At least not for DCS, where it's (for now) more about single to dual core IPC performance.

Hopefully the TUF Board is able to OC one to three P-Cores up to 5.0-5.4, let's see...

[Harlikwin]

I'm curious as to performance of this with Win10, i.e. if the win11 thread scheduler makes a big difference. Various game reviews are saying it may not matter and I don't really want to upgrade to win11 since its probably buggy still. 

Also, anyone have any leads on DDR5 ram?

[Vitallini]

In my country (Norway) the expected dates on ddr5 ram stock in the different computer stores seem to be pushed further and further out. It’s not looking great

[Harlikwin]

Yeah, I'm still collecting the other bits I need, but am increasingly worried on RAM availibility. I've already made peace with buying just 4800 spd since I'm sure the faster examples will just get snapped up by scalpers, and I'm not sure it matters that much for DCS anyway. I checked ebay and there are few modules there for rapetastic prices already... Neckbeards ruin everything.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Harlikwin

[LucShep]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:47 PM, Harlikwin said:

I'm curious as to performance of this with Win10, i.e. if the win11 thread scheduler makes a big difference. Various game reviews are saying it may not matter and I don't really want to upgrade to win11 since its probably buggy still. 

Win10 and Win11 (w/ VBS off) have same performance with Intel 12th gen.

 

 

[Harlikwin]

8 hours ago, LucShep said:

Win10 and Win11 (w/ VBS off) have same performance with Intel 12th gen.

 

 

 

 

Hm interesting. Once I can actually find some RAM I'll start with win10 I guess and maybe consider 11 if performance isn't great.

 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Waiting for RAM  

[Harlikwin]

5 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Waiting for RAM  

Yeah, in that same boat, or you can pay scalper prices on ebay. Best estimate is about 2 weeks/early december it should start to be more available. 

 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Yeah i should have thought this through and just go with a DDR4 board instead. I did not expect that the RAM would be the issue in this case. Was way more worried about the actual processor. 

[Harlikwin]

3 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Yeah i should have thought this through and just go with a DDR4 board instead. I did not expect that the RAM would be the issue in this case. Was way more worried about the actual processor. 

Likewise, esp since it was available before the proc release. 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Could still return the motherboard i guess and get a DDR4 board in the meantime. 

On the other hand, as soon as DDR5 starts getting available i'll want that just because ... 

hmm. 

[Vitallini]

23 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Yeah i should have thought this through and just go with a DDR4 board instead. I did not expect that the RAM would be the issue in this case. Was way more worried about the actual processor. 

I’ve seen some decent results of people overclocking ddr5 in the last few days. I also started thinking differently about the early ddr5 motherboards and later ddr5 compatibility. There is no guarantees of course, but isn’t the high end boards components dimensioned to handle more than the current rated ddr5 ram anyway? At least on paper?  And then you have the hassle of re-installing windows if you make the switch to a ddr5 motherboard in a years time? I’ve actually started questioning my choice on my ddr4 z690. Having to wait for a lga 1700 aio cooler, kind of cooled down the rush to get everything asap for me. Bah, if I’d gotten a ddr5 motherboard I’d probably be fretting about getting a ddr4 board now instead .

Edited November 14, 2021 by Vitallini

[Harlikwin]

9 minutes ago, Vitallini said:

I’ve seen some decent results of people overclocking ddr5 in the last few days. I also started thinking differently about the early ddr5 motherboards and later ddr5 compatibility. There is no guarantees of course, but isn’t the high end boards components dimensioned to handle more than the current rated ddr5 ram anyway? At least on paper?  And then you have the hassle of re-installing windows if you make the switch to a ddr5 motherboard in a years time? I’ve actually started questioning my choice on my ddr4 z690. Having to wait for a lga 1700 aio cooler, kind of cooled down the rush to get everything asap for me. Bah, if I’d gotten a ddr5 motherboard I’d probably be fretting about getting a ddr4 board now instead .

 

 That was more or less my thinking. Its way easier to just swap out some ram at later point. Though, RN, there is no RAM, but then again, I'm waiting on a conversion kit for my cooler too so its just what it is for now. 

 

Also, got some links to those overclocks?

Edited November 14, 2021 by Harlikwin

[jagheterjan]

Allround-PC.com pushed their chip to 5.4GHz using a 360mm AIO and a ROG Maximus Z690: https://www.allround-pc.com/artikel/cpu-ram/2021/intel-core-i9-12900k-im-test-mit-hybrid-architektur-zurueck-an-die-spitze

Guru3D achived 5.3GHz at 1.4V, drawing a massive 469Watts, again using a 360mm liquid cooling setup: https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/core-i9-12900k-review,24.html

There are other reviews out that hit the same 5.3ish GHz on large water cooling setups. It will be interesting to see if those were cherrypicked from the top tier bin for reviewing. Clocking higher than that seems to be reserved to the extreme overclockers, some first results of those can be found at hwbot.org.

You decide for yourself wether the result is worth the hassle.

Edited November 14, 2021 by jagheterjan

[Vitallini]

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 That was more or less my thinking. Its way easier to just swap out some ram at later point. Though, RN, there is no RAM, but then again, I'm waiting on a conversion kit for my cooler too so its just what it is for now. 

 

Also, got some links to those overclocks?

 

There this thread https://www.overclock.net/threads/official-intel-ddr5-oc-and-24-7-daily-memory-stability-thread.1794772/page-12

I guess what I wrote made it sound like it was better than it is, but considering it’s so early and not the best ram they are using…ah well I don’t know. I guess it’s more about not having to change the motherboard in the near future for me. Anyway, It’s ddr4 for me still. I spent the money saved from choosing  a cheaper motherboard and no new ram on a wd 850 1tb m.2 drive and a new aio cooler. I think m going to stop reading about ddr5 ram now. It’s done. 

[BitMaster]

You dont need to reinstall Win10 or Win11, not even Win7 really if you move it to another PC. The days of WinXP HAL are long gone.

I mean, I have done this many times and it hardly ever causes driver issues. Just plug it into the new board, let it boot and sort the drivers and reboot by itself and you are all set.

Deinstall the old boards software and install the new stuff, update Windows and you are done. It's ment to be possible.

If you have hardware that is crucial and natively unsupported it may be a good idea to install that onto the old machine before you do the swap. At least copy the drivers onto C drive so you could access it but I have never needed that as all I did was hopping from 2700k to 6700k to 7700k and 8700k and always initially just plugged the drive into the new board and it always worked, not so with XP and earlier, they have a HAL, hardware abstraction layer...and if that acts up... that's what you refer to.

 

[Vitallini]

That is good to know, but I’m not sure if my OCD is going to let me live with doing this . I’m sure going to try it though. Do you know if I clone from m.2 to m.2 drive if it will mess up my DCS install?