Up/neutral/down bindings for landing gear

[Krupi]

Just want to add my voice to the chorus. 

Hmmm, just was looking back at a video I stumbled across on youtube...
 

At the 2:09 mark you can see the landing gear retract and the lever snap back to neutral.

At the 6:18 mark you can see the Flap Reach 50 Degrees and snap back to neutral.

So... How it is currently modelled is perfectly correct.

The problem being how does one go about creating such a system in DCS without causing problems, what we have is fine if all you want to do is raise or lower the flaps fully for example.

The problem occurs if you want to only lower the flaps to say 15 for take off... using the mouse is tricky but you can achieve it. Using the buttons is odd... you would have to use the up position to stop the movement which is not correct, a neutral button would get around this but then you can't use a momentary button for down otherwise you would have to keep the button pressed down... which is not accurate.

This is going to take some thought when I come to make the panel.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Krupi

[Bozon]

11 hours ago, Krupi said:

Just want to add my voice to the chorus. 

Hmmm, just was looking back at a video I stumbled across on youtube...
 

At the 2:09 mark you can see the landing gear retract and the lever snap back to neutral.

At the 6:18 mark you can see the Flap Reach 50 Degrees and snap back to neutral.

So... How it is currently modelled is perfectly correct.

The problem being how would does one go about creating such a system in DCS without causing problems, what we have is fine if all you want to do is raise or lower the flaps fully for example.

The problem occurs if you want to only lower the flaps to say 15 for take off... using the mouse is tricky but you can achieve it. Using a lever is odd... you would have to use the up position to stop the movement which is not correct, a neutral button would get around this but then you can't use a momentary button for down otherwise you would have to keep the button pressed down... which is not accurate.

This is going to take some thought when I come to make the panel.

 

It is simple with 2 buttons/hat switch states - one lowers the lever one notch from its current position and the other moves one notch up. The is no issue with the level jumping to the neutral position.

We already have this and it works fine for me - the issue is the damn latch that I must assign another button for, and click it before I click the “down one position” button to start lowering the flaps.

Away with the latch I say! When I click “down” one flap level position I was it to also open the latch automatically.

[Krupi]

It's a guard and like it or not is correctly modelled. You could use voiceattack to move it when holding the flap button down.. At least I heard of people using voiceattack so. 

Say press 1 open the guard, press for two seconds lowers the flaps. 

I think you are missing the issue I am addressing. As it is a Pneumatic system it does not translate to digital particular well... if you want to stop the flap at say 15 degrees right now you have to press the up button. In reality you would just move the lever back to neutral. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Krupi

[Captain Orso]

It's not a question of why it was designed like that, although in modern aircraft, in which if you put the gear down while flying +mach it would have catastrophic consequences, and yet there is no guard against the pilot doing something so stupid, other than self-preservation.

The issue is that practically NO virtual pilots have HOTASes and button-boxes enough to waste on extra levers, hitches, hooks and frippery.

There are many aircraft with security mechanisms which we are not required to operate. You don't have to unlock the canopy on the P-51 to open it. You don't have to press the thumb release for the master fuel valve on the Harrier, to shut the fuel off, another example on the P-51, the water and oil radiator flap controls, you don't have to flip the switch cover open to operate the switches, you just operate the switches, and if the over is closed, it is automatically opened first - I'm sure everyone can think of one or two.

The question is of whether to be user-friendly or not.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Captain Orso

[Bozon]

5 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

It's not a question of why it was designed like that, although in modern aircraft, in which if you put the gear down while flying +mach it would have catastrophic consequences, and yet there is no guard against the pilot doing something so stupid, other than self-preservation.

The issue is that practically NO virtual pilots have HOTASes and button-boxes enough to waste on extra levers, hitches, hooks and frippery.

There are many aircraft with security mechanisms which we are not required to operate. You don't have to unlock the canopy on the P-51 to open it. You don't have to press the thumb release for the master fuel valve on the Harrier, to shut the fuel off, another example on the P-51, the water and oil radiator flap controls, you don't have to flip the switch cover open to operate the switches, you just operate the switches, and if the over is closed, it is automatically opened first - I'm sure everyone can think of one or two.

The question is of whether to be user-friendly or not.

 

Thank you. Could not have said it better.

[Holbeach]

8 hours ago, Krupi said:

It's a guard and like it or not is correctly modelled. You could use voiceattack to move it when holding the flap button down.. At least I heard of people using voiceattack so. 

Say press 1 open the guard, press for two seconds lowers the flaps. 

I think you are missing the issue I am addressing. As it is a Pneumatic system it does not translate to digital particular well... if you want to stop the flap at say 15 degrees right now you have to press the up button. In reality you would just move the lever back to neutral. 

 

The "up" button, (or rocker in my case) does move the lever "up" to neutral, from down to stop at 15 deg. This is correct.

..

6 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

 

The issue is that practically NO virtual pilots have HOTASes and button-boxes enough to waste on extra levers, hitches, hooks and frippery.

 

 

Unless you have an X 52, where 3 rockers provide all the buttons required for correct operation, for this and other similar sims.

..

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Holbeach

[grafspee]

If ED decide to implement it, i hope that they will not remove system which have automatic neutral position, which is extremely helpful for me, it's like having second crew member do if for you

Edited October 29, 2021 by grafspee

[No1sonuk]

If you're MAKING YOUR OWN BOX, use an ARDUINO PRO MICRO or LEONARDO.  They can easily be made to operate as USB joystick/button boxes, and you can then use programming to fire a "virtual button press" when you flip the lever to unlock it, then wait 500ms, then fire the lever move button press.

Alternatively, having seen RomeoKilo's latest efforts with magnetic toggle switches, I have an idea for use with DCS-BIOS:

The levers are sprung to the centre position.
The levers push a button in either up or down positions.
The arduino detects the lever move and turns on the holding magnet.
The arduino sends the lever command (including latch unlock) to DCS via DCS-BIOS.

The arduino then reads the lever position output from DCS.
If it's supposed to be centred, the arduino turns off the magnet and ignores the switch state change (*)
If it's supposed to be where it is, the arduino waits for DCS or the switch state change.(*)

(*) The switch state change waits are really only useful for the flaps lever where you might want to set a level between full in or full out.

Theoretically, that SHOULD replicate the in-game lever behaviour. And it could use a cheaper arduino, though the lever hardware would be more complex.

[Krupi]

6 hours ago, Holbeach said:

The "up" button, (or rocker in my case) does move the lever "up" to neutral, from down to stop at 15 deg. This is correct.

..

 

No it is not, in reality you only needed to move the lever to neutral when at the desired flap angle (If you want full flap it will go back to neutral once at 50degrees, as can be seen in the videos).

We have to press the flap up button to stop the flap, it is correctly modelled when using the mouse as you can set it to neutral manually.

When using buttons as we have no neutral and introducing a neutral button will cause it's own set of headaches (i.e. having to hold the button down) so they have got around it by having us hit the up button.

[Holbeach]

13 hours ago, Krupi said:

No it is not, in reality you only needed to move the lever to neutral when at the desired flap angle (If you want full flap it will go back to neutral once at 50degrees, as can be seen in the videos).

 

That's exactly what it does.

..

[Krupi]

So tell me where is the neutral button... As explained they didn't want to add one for obvious reasons so what we PHYSICALLY have to do is press the up button which then acts as a neutral button temporarily when the lever is down and vice versa. 

[Holbeach]

There is no neutral button. That would be unrealistic. (The OP has asked for one. I wish him well).

Lever down after moving lock. Correct. 

At 15 deg. Lever up to neutral position which will lock. Correct.

Or. Lever down after moving lock. When it reaches Full Flap (45 deg), it will automatically return to Neutral and lock. Correct.

Flaps can be moved up without unlocking. Correct.

It's about as perfect as a sim could get.

..

 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Holbeach

[Bozon]

6 hours ago, Krupi said:

So tell me where is the neutral button... As explained they didn't want to add one for obvious reasons so what we PHYSICALLY have to do is press the up button which then acts as a neutral button temporarily when the lever is down and vice versa. 

Krupi, the “up” button is not to put the lever in the up position - it is to move the lever position one notch up from its current state - which ever it happens to be. Call it the “shift upwards” button, and the other “shift downwards” button.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Bozon

[Krupi]

4 hours ago, Bozon said:

Krupi, the “up” button is not to put the lever in the up position - it is to move the lever position one notch up from its current state - which ever it happens to be. Call it the “shift upwards” button, and the other “shift downwards” button.

 

Yes precisely my point. 

We have an up and a down button but in reality there is up, neutral and down positions. 

I am trying to recreate the flap lever panel, however because it is a Pneumatic system it is quite difficult to model how it works in reality. 

Unfortunately I don't see how ED can resolve this issue without causing arguably worse problems in operating the flap.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Krupi

[No1sonuk]

15 minutes ago, Krupi said:

I am trying to recreate the flap lever panel, however because it is a Pneumatic system it is quite difficult to model how it works in reality. 

 

[Krupi]

A rather complex solution. 

I will check it out.

Thanks

[No1sonuk]

1 hour ago, Krupi said:

A rather complex solution. 

I will check it out.

Thanks

It may be complex, but it beats the constant bi**hing by some here...

[Hawkeye60]

Or, you could build this!

 

FYI, They have a Mossie kit in dev.

You tube search will bring joy!

 

https://authentikit.org/

 

I built one! Throttle unit as well!

Hall effect axis.

Outstanding design!

 

Highly recommended!

Did I say Free?

 

[Krupi]

Already in the middle of designing my own

I prefer to use metal when I can, non of this horrible plastic stuff  

Looking to make a casting of a Mossie Stick so I can swap when needed.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Krupi

[Bozon]

5 minutes ago, Krupi said:

Already in the middle of designing my own

I prefer to use metal when I can, non of this horrible plastic stuff  

Looking to make a casting of a Mossie Stick so I can swap when needed.

 

Oh wow, I didn’t realize that you are building it. Hat off to you, this looks great 

[Krupi]

Thanks will need it, I am trying to make a modular design so I can shift things around depending on the aircraft flown. 

I will start a thread once I have got a bit closer to completing the design stage. 

Already have genuine Air Ministry switches... 

Not sure if I will be able to get the Dimmer working at the moment unfortunately. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Krupi

[No1sonuk]

Nice.
I bought some genuine starter button covers and 3D printed my own buttons.
My starter buttons look like Spit/Mossie buttons from the front, but they use the same buttons as the red ones on this panel.

[Captain Orso]

10 hours ago, Krupi said:

Yes precisely my point. 

We have an up and a down button but in reality there is up, neutral and down positions. 

I am trying to recreate the flap lever panel, however because it is a Pneumatic system it is quite difficult to model how it works in reality. 

Unfortunately I don't see how ED can resolve this issue without causing arguably worse problems in operating the flap.

 

If you want it to work 100% the same as on the real Mossie, you need solenoid-switches.

Somebody is doing something similar with a ThrustMaster Warthog HOTAS Throttle. Have a look here: Full switch upgrade for Thrustmaster Warthog throttle [OTTO, Cutler-Hammer, Honeywell, Mason]