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F-5e for a beginner.


darklanov

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It's depends...

 

What you like to do? This is a fun module, you can do variety of missions, but is limited just to dumb bombs, heat seeker missiles and no useful radar. It's a module of a old plane, if you like the F-5 or the timeframe he represent, go for it.

 

But if you dont know yet what you really want to do in DCS, I strong sugest you to use the 2 weeks free avaliation period to try it, and try modern multirole fighters like F-16, F-18 and JF-17 who allow to you great variety of missions with your friends.

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23 minutes ago, marcoscosta said:

It's depends...

 

What you like to do? This is a fun module, you can do variety of missions, but is limited just to dumb bombs, heat seeker missiles and no useful radar. It's a module of a old plane, if you like the F-5 or the timeframe he represent, go for it.

 

But if you dont know yet what you really want to do in DCS, I strong sugest you to use the 2 weeks free avaliation period to try it, and try modern multirole fighters like F-16, F-18 and JF-17 who allow to you great variety of missions with your friends.

Thank you. I have been flying with the Su-25t which is an aircraft made for ground attack and close air support. I want to get to air to air fighting. Sure I am gonna buy the modern gen4 fighters some time, but I was wondering if it makes sense to learn air to air maneuvering etc on the F-5.
The F-5e has been the main fighter of our  air force so it represents a lot ( because it's a very old fighter our government ordered some F-16s to be delivered in 2022).


Edited by darklanov
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The F-5E is a great module to ease people into full-fidelity modules. And it also serves those who'd prefer to learn to walk before registering for the Olympics 😉

Modules such as the F-18 (especially in the state it is currently in - aka almost finished) can easily overwhelm someone not used to study-level simulators.

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The F-5 is a low cost export fighter, which means it's simple and not the most capable aircraft. Despite the simplicity though, its age can make it difficult to use compared to more modern planes. This goes for air to ground especially as you don't get modern CCIP/CCRP sights. For dogfighting it's pretty intuitive with dogfight modes that resemble those of modern fighters. The radar is extremely weak though, so don't really expect to learn BVR with it. Fuel and weapons (especially air to air missiles - 2 max) are also limited, so endurance typically isn't great.

 

The F-5 is reasonably quick but not super fast. Agility is good but it can feel a bit underpowered. It's workable against other player piloted aircraft, but the lack of thrust can make itself very evident against the AI with their overtuned flight models, which you might not have much experience against if you're coming from the Su-25. Both the MiG-19 and MiG-21 have a bit more power, and the 19 is more agile too.

 

Modern planes like the F-16/17/18 have more systems to learn but you don't have to learn them all at once. Air to air systems also tend to be pretty simple, and for air to ground dumb bombs are easier to score hits with in the modern planes. Whether or not you're a beginner I'd suggest going for a module that interests you above all else. If you enjoy flying it, you will learn it no matter how complex it is. I enjoy the F-5, though some of the quirks in DCS make it so that it's not a module I use primarily.

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The F-5 has incredibly serious bugs that make operating it properly much more difficult than it needed. The RWR 'implementation' is highly questionable, the gyro instruments accrue error and make the jet only suitable for VFR operations only and the engine nozzle scheduling is bugged, which means you'll have to adopt a highly unnatural throttle control, which makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

It is used as a 'trainer' in DCS, but that's not because it's easier to use than a flying computer like the Hornet or the Viper, quite the contrary in fact. Systems are easier to use but learning systems is the easiest thing in DCS anyway. Literally everybody can watch a video and learn which button to press to make the aircraft do this or that. The difficulty comes from remembering all the different systems in those advanced modules. Once you actually want to tactically operate the aircraft, the F-5 is much more challenging in every interpretation of the word. This is why it's used as a trainer. It's much more difficult to do anything in the F-5 compared to the Hornet, Viper, A-10 or even stuff like the Viggen or the Mirage. Flying requires constant attention, manual trimming and very good throttle control to work around the bug, you have no HUD so landing and even just flying around will be based on analog instruments and you'll use several different guages to build a mental picture of what the aircraft is doing instead of having a HUD telling you that at a glance.

 

Bombing is done with old school depression tables, which require you to have very precise control over the aircraft. If you're 25 knots fast at the time of release your pass will be invalid. If you learn how to do this properly you will have a significantly easier time in any modern jet but using the F-5 in this manner is much more difficult. For air to air, it has no fly by wire system to help you, no HMD, no way of helping you with situational awareness and the performance is much more limited compared to a modern fighter, which makes it much more difficult to operate.

 

 

As a new player, your best bets are the Hornet or the JF-17 if you want easy to learn and well made modules. If you want an actual trainer for whatever reason that can also be used as a light attack aircraft, try the C-101. System wise it's one of the best simulations of a military jet in any commercial sim. With that being said, all the caveats apply, it's much more difficult to operate and because it's such a high fidelity module, knowledge about the systems will be mandatory. However, it has no major bugs and the developer constantly updates it, unlike the BST abandonwares that are stuck with critical bugs for years. If you care about realistic training, it's going to serve you well because it has TACAN, VOR and ILS capabilities as well as a flight director. 

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The seriousness of the F5 bugs are being exaggerated.

 

We have been flying it daily lately and the bug that affects us most is the unreliability of the air to air TACAN. The rest are minor nuisances, at worst. RWR operation is now a PITA with the last update.

 

We don’t even notice the throttle issues.


A recent day in Cold War

 

 

 

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I would say it depends, if you have a personal affinity to it, or to cold war era aircraft or are specifically looking for something thats easy to operate systems-wise, then you can consider it.

However, me personally I don‘t buy into the “trainer” role in DCS as a sort of step up to more complex aircraft .This makes sense in the real world, but not in DCS.

I would just go straight to the end-goal aircraft you’re interested in, if you have one that is.

 

Also , again, just my personal position, given the state of the F-5 and the way ED treats the F-5 customers in regards to fixing bugs, I would not give them my money for this product.

 

regards,


Snappy

 

 

 


Edited by Snappy
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1 hour ago, Snappy said:

I would say it depends, if you have a personal affinity to it, or to cold war era aircraft or are specifically looking for something thats easy to operate systems-wise, then you can consider it.

However, me personally I don‘t buy into the “trainer” role in DCS as a sort of step up to more complex aircraft .This makes sense in the real world, but not in DCS.

I would just go straight to the end-goal aircraft you’re interested in, if you have one that is.

 

Also , again, just my personal position, given the state of the F-5 and the way ED treats the F-5 customers in regards to fixing bugs, I would not give them my money for this product.

 

I do think this is what it ultimately boils down to. Even on sale, the F-5 isn't that cheap. Buying the Mirage, the Viggen or similar aircraft for the same price makes a lot more sense because simply they give you more thing to do, more stuff to learn. If we're talking about a new player, buying the Jeff, the Hornet, the Viper or similar modules on sale would also make a lot more sense, they get the most for their money and these modules are in active development more or less. Severe bugs do happen but they get fixed as well. The F-5 doesn't even do its niche correctly because the L-39 or the C-101 are much better modules if you want a trainer or light attack aircraft. 

 

And I agree, spending money on trainers as a stepping block doesn't really make a lot of sense in the realm of DCS. In reality, trainers are used because operational aircraft are expensive and can be more dangerous to operate. In DCS none of those apply so unless someone is specifically looking for a realistic flight school like experience, trainers serve little purpose. And even if you do want to replicate some real life pilot training syllabus or want to get instruction from the back seat, the L-39 and especially the C-101 make a lot more sense. The F-5 as it stands today is a terrible representation of what DCS can do. If the long standing, serious bugs are fixed, then maybe but as it stands today unless someone's favourite aircraft is the F-5 (or the T-38), they should buy something else.

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It is actually a really nice flying model.  Quite easy to learn different modes, I've been flying it a lot. What is said above is true. If you want to fly it against most modern what DCS has to offer, you are at a serious disadvantage. However against Mig-21 and the likes, -19 even -15, Sabre and the helicopters It will hold it's own. I have yet to try the F5 in the multiplayer environment as I have found enough entertainment doing ready missions and campaigns. The Cold War sounds quite interesting. Regardless, I can recommend the module as a good starter. 

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I'd say that you can't go wrong with the F-5. What you have to realize though is that it's definitely not a BVR fighter. If you want to learn the basics of beyond visual range fighting you will need to purchase another module. My favorite in that regard, due to it's simplicity and ease of use is the Mirage. 


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I would say it depends, if you have a personal affinity to it, or to cold war era aircraft or are specifically looking for something thats easy to operate systems-wise, then you can consider it.
However, me personally I don‘t buy into the “trainer” role in DCS as a sort of step up to more complex aircraft .This makes sense in the real world, but not in DCS.
I would just go straight to the end-goal aircraft you’re interested in, if you have one that is.
 
Also , again, just my personal position, given the state of the F-5 and the way ED treats the F-5 customers in regards to fixing bugs, I would not give them my money for this product.
 
regards,

Snappy
 
 
 
Agree with this. Learning F-5 takes time and learning Viper and Hornet also take time. We play a simulation here so It wont cost anything if you crash and burn. Buy module which you're really want, save your money and time.

My 2 cents

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On 9/18/2021 at 4:35 PM, darklanov said:

Hey, guys. I've been playing DCS for about a month now and I have been playing with the su-25t. I'm looking to buy my first fighter jet. Do you recommend the F-5 for a rookie pilot?

Yes! Strongly recommend it. I consider F-5 to be , IMHO, best trainer in DCS. At least for basics and intermediary of airmanship , WVR ACM, and AG weapons delivery. In VFR conditions. At night and in bad weather, with poor visibility, it gets hairy. You have to practice instrument flying a bit more in F-5E with new weather in 2.7.X. I use Instant Action/Takeoff mission as quick refresher. You have to fly from Batumi to Senkaki and land there. But in 2.7.X Senkaki, in this mission, has low visibility. So your NAV has to be decent, in order to place aircraft at correct altitude, speed, and course for recovery on runway 27.

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  I like the F-5 is a fun plane to fly, handles well, with relatively simple easy to learn systems. Of course, that last also limits your options later, too, as it has similar A2A capability as the Su-25 (less in some ways). It's a stepping stone aircraft, but as others mentioned unless you have a particular affinity to it, you can learn all the same stuff with a more capable aircraft. I also say the bugs are exaggerated by rivet counters (as they usually are).

 

  Ultimately, every purchasing decision comes to the same thing here considering the time investment required : does it appeal to you? Are you interested enough to spend the time necessary to learn it? If the answer to both is yes, then the aircraft is probably worth it.

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Don't forget one thing. F-5E will teach you how to fly right, how to maintain your energy, It will teach you gunnery without the air of aiming devices, It will teach you to drop dumb bombs aimed by your eyes and how consistent your bomb pass is. Guess what, when you switch to a Gen4 fighter all those lessons will give you the edge and will make the transition easier to what you like to fly. It's quite a nice plane and quite fun in MP and SP. Those bugs that exists, we all learned how to live with them. 

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5 hours ago, SorelRo said:

Don't forget one thing. F-5E will teach you how to fly right, how to maintain your energy, It will teach you gunnery without the air of aiming devices, It will teach you to drop dumb bombs aimed by your eyes and how consistent your bomb pass is. Guess what, when you switch to a Gen4 fighter all those lessons will give you the edge and will make the transition easier to what you like to fly. It's quite a nice plane and quite fun in MP and SP. Those bugs that exists, we all learned how to live with them. 

Highly agree, and I want to add that all planes with fly-by-wire can teach you very poor habits because the jet will correct your mistakes. Of course a Gen4 is easier to fly, it is made so in order for the pilot to be able to fly with his head down on the FLIR/radar screen. For actual flying and BFM, the F-5E is a great way to learn: you don't have a computer to fly so you need to fly properly, you don't have loads of power so you need to manage your energy, etc. Same for using "dumb" bombs, once you master their use in the F-5E, you will truly appreciate the new, guided munitions and understand when/how to use them to your advantage. Many of the flying skills you learn in the F-5E are transferrable and will make you a better pilot once you go for a 4th gen.

 

There is kind of a natural progression to DCS, and going for the most advanced/complicated module to start can overwhelm a virtual pilot. The F-5E is a great stepping stone, it feels great to fly, and I also recommend @SorelRo's DLC campaign. I learned a lot about this jet, and my flying improved due to the variety of situations that this campaign put me into, from large-scale air-to-air fights with MiGs to tree-top SAM rockets attacks, it was a load of fun all the way.


Edited by Qiou87

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6 minutes ago, Qiou87 said:

Highly agree, and I want to add that all planes with fly-by-wire can teach you very poor habits because the jet will correct your mistakes

You can do the same thing in the C-101 while being a much better trainer that can also teach you IFR operations without long standing bugs and very questionable systems.

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1 hour ago, WobblyFlops said:

You can do the same thing in the C-101 while being a much better trainer that can also teach you IFR operations without long standing bugs and very questionable systems.

The C-101 is a lovely module, although it hasn't really been used widely and engaged in any combat - I always fail to see the point of a real trainer in DCS. How good is the campaign in this module? It was released this year as I see - I'd say the quality of SP content is an important point to consider when picking up a new module. It's all fine to have a nice jet but if you don't have anything to do in it to help you learn, I find it is a shame.

I have quite a lot of hours in the F-5E, I don't know that I would be so harsh. Yes, stuff needs to be fixed, but I haven't honestly found anything that annoyed me so much. Same for the "very questionable systems", I've found them reliable - I wasn't looking for bugs, just flying the jet to accomplish the mission. Even in IMC I didn't find any problems...

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Honestly, it will not be nice to say but I would agree with Snappy. Out of all the modules I have, it is probably the one I use the least by far ( and basically almost never use now) due to its limited capabilities and no updates or variants. 

 

The module itself is decent, don't get me wrong, it is a really nice aircraft to fly, you get great pilot sensations as it is not FBW. It is definitely a good module to have and if you value this plane emotionally, you will not be disappointed, it is a piece of history.

 

However I do not think that it is a better starting point than any other module or that it would teach you anything better. To me it does not compare favourably to several other modules which have received more consistent attention. 

 

As some people explained, Air to ground is basically WWII style and thus a lot more challenging than CCIP/CCRP on more modern jets, your loadout choice is very limited for both A2G and A2A and the aircraft is underpowered, it is not really popular online except on specific servers that restrict the planeset so once you're done with the sp campaign, it has less potential IMO if you only own this module.

 

Some modules are a bit complex like the A-10 or the F-18 if you really want to master them, that is true but they are also worth the time and efforts in my opinion. But there are also modules like the Viggen , Mirage or the Tomcat which are a bit easier to get started with. The Harrier is also really interesting. If you have to own only one module for now, i think that the F5 is not the one that offers the most in "gameplay" terms.

 

 

 


Edited by Fynek
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21 minutes ago, Qiou87 said:

The C-101 is a lovely module, although it hasn't really been used widely and engaged in any combat - I always fail to see the point of a real trainer in DCS. How good is the campaign in this module? It was released this year as I see - I'd say the quality of SP content is an important point to consider when picking up a new module. It's all fine to have a nice jet but if you don't have anything to do in it to help you learn, I find it is a shame.

I have quite a lot of hours in the F-5E, I don't know that I would be so harsh. Yes, stuff needs to be fixed, but I haven't honestly found anything that annoyed me so much. Same for the "very questionable systems", I've found them reliable - I wasn't looking for bugs, just flying the jet to accomplish the mission. Even in IMC I didn't find any problems...

I fly the F-5 daily. I agree on the whole "trainer" idea in DCS. Pointless.

 

The T-38 is not a "trainer" in the real world. It is an eliminator. It is more difficult to fly than anything a future fighter pilot will fly.

 

The F-5E is a bit easier to fly than the T-38 but it is not an easy to fly, 4th Generation fighter. 

 

From my perspective as a PvP focused player, the F-5 and its opponents, the Mig-21, Mig-19 and Mig-15 offer the best fun in DCS. Radar guided and all aspect missiles are not very entertaining. Of course, someone could offer a server with the modern fighters and not allow the radar guided missiles but there would still be all aspect IR missiles, which greatly reduces the need for skillful BFM.

 

DCS is a horrible IFR training platform. There are many errors and confusion about differing ways of doing the same thing. Altimetry is a glaring example.

 

Buy the F-5E if you are interested in BFM against human opponents. Buy its opponents. 

 

If PvE or single player is more more your style, the F-5 is probably not a good choice. The AI aerial opponents are very predictable and boring. Air to Ground in the F-5 is something that requires a lot of study and practice and, even after you develop the skills, you will still need to ripple pickle to kill heavy armor. Not too many people find the need to shuttle a full load of bombs multiple times to the same target a ton of fun unless you are doing it as a part of a well organized, fun group.

 

The OP indicated that his country still operates the F5. That is the best reason of all to buy it. If it draws your interest for a personal reason such as that, you shouldn't hesitate to purchase it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, SorelRo said:

Don't forget one thing. F-5E will teach you how to fly right, how to maintain your energy, It will teach you gunnery without the air of aiming devices, It will teach you to drop dumb bombs aimed by your eyes and how consistent your bomb pass is. Guess what, when you switch to a Gen4 fighter all those lessons will give you the edge and will make the transition easier to what you like to fly. It's quite a nice plane and quite fun in MP and SP. Those bugs that exists, we all learned how to live with them. 

If I'm being honest I think this is a bit exaggerated. Learning the F-5 won't make a difference when flying the F-16 or F-18, or whatever. You need to learn how to maintain energy in the latter or you're going to die a lot to other aircraft and SAM's. 4th gen aircraft don't have infinite energy and they need to be flown properly, flybywire or not.

 

F-5 gunnery is actually a lot like modern fighters thanks to the dogfight switch. You get radar assisted aim and it's advisable to use it because it's more accurate than aiming yourself without assistance (although the F-5's cannon spread is pretty bad). On the other hand the F-16 has a funnel for manual aiming and tracers so it's not like you couldn't learn to manually aim with that plane.

 

When it comes to bombs, the whole point of modern avionics is to reduce the need for pilot precision in many cases. Knowing how to bomb in a F-5 doesn't really mean anything in a modern plane, and in a lot of cases you don't want to employ the tactics the F-5 would use. They aren't fundamental tactics, they're tactics made necessarily by a less capable airframe.

 

All of this doesn't mean that the F-5 isn't any good, unless all a player cares about is competitive online, any module can be worth buying. However if you want to be good at X, buy X. Buying Y (F-5) doesn't make you good at X (F-18).

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, I think both approaches to beginner modules are valid - either starting with something complicated, that you really want to learn, or buying solid but easier stuff. If either of those will help you to dive into this level of simulation, it works, then it is good. Like Exorcet above stated, procedures or skills doesn't really have to translate well between modules, and that's something to take into account. Solid flying in C-101 doesn't really have to increase your F-5 or Hornet skills.

But it is really all about what you seek in the sim, in my opinion. Trainers helped me a lot, I like them as a planes and as a modules. Since I am more of Great War period guy, it helped me to transition to jets, all that equipement, speeds and so on. But for me aviation is fun in general, so while I can use C-101 or L-39 only in some cases in MP, I consider it very good purchase. 

F-5 helped me a lot when it comes to supersonic planes, using burners, some BFM... I am still poor pilot, don't get me wrong. But! C-101 uses the same instruments and similar layout to F-5, and I guess it helped me with learning the cockpit, at least in that regard. It is also trim-heavy, so there is another thing. Starting procedure is also not that far off...

However, I would not encourage to buy one module to get better in another one, as those similarities are not that numerous to be worth the price. It worked for me, and I am happy with that, it doesn't have to work for someone else. But if you like aviation in general, certain time period or a specific plane, there is value here - even if it is casual flying around. If you enjoy it, and you agree that your F-5 won't be as capable as some other planes out there, then it is simple, fun plane, that still demands some knowledge and reading.

If you are new to study-level sims, I guess it helps more with study and learning part, and that can actually translate into other purchases you intend to make in the future. 

And last, but not least, F-5 fun factor. This is fun, nimble plane, that is joy to fly. After all, even if it study level sim, heavy on charts and numbers, it is supposed to be fun time for you. If you have a good time in F-5 (or any other module, even boring or limited from combat perspective), it is good, it is your game, you play it how you want it.

 


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You should not buy it for the simple fact it has major unresolved bugs since several years. 

Especially this one: 

 

Have a look at the locked threads in the bug section and make up your mind. 


Edited by bkthunder

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