Is it possible to trim this aircraft to fly hands off

[pocketedition]

˙unɟ ou sᴉ uʍop ǝpᴉsdn pǝddᴉlɟ ʎlʇuǝʇɹǝʌpɐuᴉ ɟlǝsɹnoʎ ƃuᴉpuᴉɟ 'ɥɐǝ⅄

[Helles Belle]

4 hours ago, pocketedition said:

˙unɟ ou sᴉ uʍop ǝpᴉsdn pǝddᴉlɟ ʎlʇuǝʇɹǝʌpɐuᴉ ɟlǝsɹnoʎ ƃuᴉpuᴉɟ 'ɥɐǝ⅄

 

Even the real guys flying it thought that sometimes
 

[Art-J]

Well, it was difficult not to think about the topic of this thread after listening to podcats with Colin Bell, linked to in that thread...

 

 

... and noting his memory of Mossie being a plane which at 20k+ ft "could almost fly itself if your trimmed it up and would stay on course and fly a while before you had to check it". True, that's not a quantifiable description, but apparently the plane flew level long enough for Mr Bell to be capable of taking naps, with the navigator giving him a nudge every now and then to correct the heading. A rather difficult feat to replicate in our Mossie with its current instability :D.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Art-J

[Jandar]

Well, push wrong button, bailout & enjoy

A jug fly hands off, no problem - Bf109 never

[bones1014]

I hope the elevator trim is adjusted at some point. The size of the trim scale is ridiculously large if just bumping the wheel throws you up and down the way it does.

[cromhunt]

Once more a thread about something difficult to manage because of missing real things compared with what is modeled in game.

Aerology.

That is the point between real and simulated.

As it's not featured apart some weather presetted,something has been done to give illusion of unstability.
But as we have to play with that something is coded to make the game playable.

You wil remark and all the more on warbirds the most of time ,that exists a config RPM /PA/ trim that gives the module stable.
On Mosquito use 2850 RPM and 8 boost and you will see the stuff becoming gentle and easy to manage.

At the same time you will hear engines sounds change.

It's just a trick and nothing to compare with the real things.It's useless

 

good game

 

[bones1014]

1 minute ago, cromhunt said:

Once more a thread about something difficult to manage because of missing real things compared with what is modeled in game.

Aerology.

That is the point between real and simulated.

As it's not featured apart some weather presetted,something has been done to give illusion of unstability.
But as we have to play with that something is coded to make the game playable.

You wil remark and all the more on warbirds the most of time ,that exists a config RPM /PA/ trim that gives the module stable.
On Mosquito use 2850 RPM and 8 boost and you will see the stuff becoming gentle and easy to manage.

At the same time you will hear engines sounds change.

It's just a trick and nothing to compare with the real things.It's useless

 

good game

 

Cruising at 2850 RPM and 8 boost are you nuts?! That's climb settings. 

[Nealius]

To be fair, proper cruise settings trip the gear warning horn below 10,000ft so we’d all end up with tinnitus if we flew her like that. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Nealius

[rkk01]

Cc’ed from the other trim thread…

 

Quote

I found the Mossie difficult to trim using the “click pit” trim adjusters…

 

The good news though - getting a good trim is dead easy once mapped, in my case to the stick hat switches (well, to two of them)

 

I have rudder trim and elevator trim mapped to one hat switch and aileron trim to another 

 

My “process” for trimming after take-off

 

- dial out the T/O rudder trim

- trim nose down to dial out the very strong nose up tendency

- add some aileron trim to neutralise the left roll tendency

 

She will then fly pretty steady with only occasional and fairly minimal stick inputs

 

[rkk01]

16 hours ago, bones1014 said:

Cruising at 2850 RPM and 8 boost are you nuts?! That's climb settings. 

what settings are folks using for cruise?

 

I tend to set revs at 2600 and boost 8

[Nealius]

31 minutes ago, rkk01 said:

what settings are folks using for cruise?

 

I tend to set revs at 2600 and boost 8

 

Officially, I think the numbers are:

 

Climb: 2850/+9

Cruise: 2650/+7

Economy Cruise: 1800~2200/-2~+4

 

One of those is simultaneously "Max Continuous" but I can't remember which one.

 

When ingressing low I run Climb settings because Cruise sets off the gear horn. I only do Cruise at higher altitudes. I never use Economy cruise because, at least in the Spit, it tends to overcool the engine and the thing quits on me during final. 

 

[cromhunt]

To "bones1014"

I'm not "nuts" as you said and please stay polite,thanks.

 

If you did read all my  answer you will see that i point out that it's just a trick and nothing to be compared.

ATM the module is not finished,and i maintain that you are able to play with 2850 rpm and 8 boost in continue.

That setting gives you the most stable play.It's the answer of the thread object,not a new polemic starting.

Even if it's the climb configuration.

i don't care about all significants settings,because the module is not yet completed.

no need to insult people to be smart on a forum

 

good game

Edited October 5, 2021 by cromhunt

[felixx75]

7 hours ago, Nealius said:

 

Officially, I think the numbers are:

 

Climb: 2850/+9

Cruise: 2650/+7

Economy Cruise: 1800~2200/-2~+4

 

One of those is simultaneously "Max Continuous" but I can't remember which one.

 

When ingressing low I run Climb settings because Cruise sets off the gear horn. I only do Cruise at higher altitudes. I never use Economy cruise because, at least in the Spit, it tends to overcool the engine and the thing quits on me during final. 

 

"Max Continuous" --> 2650 rpm @+7 (= Cruise)

[The LT]

omg, whats with the people these days? I don't see "being nuts" as even remotely insulting... jeez.
He even put a smiley in there. cmon...

[Bremspropeller]

14 hours ago, Nealius said:

One of those is simultaneously "Max Continuous" but I can't remember which one.

 

"Tom Max Continuous" sounds a little awkward, so he went for that other name.

[Razor68]

Tested it for two days before i deleted it, a trimming nightmare.

[bones1014]

what settings are folks using for cruise?
 
I tend to set revs at 2600 and boost 8

I'm just teasing. I thought cruise was 2650 and 7 boost but what do I know?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

To "bones1014"
I'm not "nuts" as you said and please stay polite,thanks.
 
If you did read all my  answer you will see that i point out that it's just a trick and nothing to be compared.
ATM the module is not finished,and i maintain that you are able to play with 2850 rpm and 8 boost in continue.
That setting gives you the most stable play.It's the answer of the thread object,not a new polemic starting.
Even if it's the climb configuration.
i don't care about all significants settings,because the module is not yet completed.
no need to insult people to be smart on a forum
 
good game

Chill dude. I'm just joking around.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[_IvyMike_]

On 10/4/2021 at 6:33 PM, cromhunt said:

Once more a thread about something difficult to manage because of missing real things compared with what is modeled in game.

Aerology.

That is the point between real and simulated.

As it's not featured apart some weather presetted,something has been done to give illusion of unstability.
But as we have to play with that something is coded to make the game playable.

You wil remark and all the more on warbirds the most of time ,that exists a config RPM /PA/ trim that gives the module stable.
On Mosquito use 2850 RPM and 8 boost and you will see the stuff becoming gentle and easy to manage.

At the same time you will hear engines sounds change.

It's just a trick and nothing to compare with the real things.It's useless

 

good game

 

The pitch trim problem with the Mossie isn’t because the model in DCS is super accurate to the real thing, the problem is it’s not.
In the real world Mossies trimming is done by turning a trim wheel just like in most aircrafts, the wheel hasn’t got set positions so you can turn it as much or as little as you’d like.
In the sim however most ppl haven’t got a trim wheel to turn, instead you have to push a button. How much the trim wheel moves when you push that button is not in any way related to the real world Mossie and as of now it moves way too much, so you can’t do the real world equivalent of nudging the trim wheel instead you’re bound to move it a set minimum amount.  
You can change this by editing the lua file, lowering the default speed at which the wheel turns when you hit the button, this makes a huge difference, so it has nothing to do with the flight model. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by _IvyMike_

[Yo-Yo]

Generally, the point is not in trim wheel steps in DCS.  Mosquito (I mean real life aircraft but the same for DCS) is neutral in pitch both stick free and stick fixed even at 2650/+4lb. It means that it can fly at any IAS (excluding low IAS, where it becomes pitch stable) hands free or even with the same elevator position. In glide condition, especially iif bombs and fuel are off, it is quite stable. 
So, trim in Mosquito just eliminates forces on the stick but can not be a mean of hands off flying. As the plane is neutral (and for higher power settings a bit unstable) it can trim itself at any AoA due to air turbulence, pilot instant input. etc, and will not return to the old AoA.

This is correct for P-47 and 109K. For 109 K one can fill the rear tank and clearly see that the stick position for lower speed is more AFT than the required position for higher speed that is a sign of fixed stick pitch instability.

[Bremspropeller]

Right now, I can not "trim out the forces" in cruise, as the pitch trim is too coarse. It seems okay for configuration-changes.

It needs another fine-setting.

 

I recon it's hard to translate from a trimwheel to a thumbswitch and it's particularily hard to translate it for two different behaviours:

Fine gains for regular "on speed" trimming in cruise and coarse gains for configuration-changes.

 

Making two separate trim-inputs with two different gains would be a great way to work this out for people that don't have an axis with a high resolution to play with.

[ZeroReady]

3 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Right now, I can not "trim out the forces" in cruise, as the pitch trim is too coarse. It seems okay for configuration-changes.

It needs another fine-setting.

 

I recon it's hard to translate from a trimwheel to a thumbswitch and it's particularily hard to translate it for two different behaviours:

Fine gains for regular "on speed" trimming in cruise and coarse gains for configuration-changes.

 

Making two separate trim-inputs with two different gains would be a great way to work this out for people that don't have an axis with a high resolution to play with.

You can change it to a finer setting in the lua if you didn't know. It's the only way to make it flyable in my opinion. You can dial back the speed at which the trim wheel rotates as low as you want. Unfortunately NineLine seems to not have the trim issue the rest of us have so it will probably never get changed and we'll have to update lua ourselves every time there's a patch.

[Bremspropeller]

Just now, ZeroReady said:

You can change it to a finer setting in the lua if you didn't know. It's the only way to make it flyable in my opinion. You can dial back the speed at which the trim wheel rotates as low as you want.

 

I know it and I don't want to change if for the reasons written above (two gains neccessary) and because I don't want to change it with every new game-update.

Just providing two diffferent trim options (high and low gains) for pitch trim is the easiest solution.

 

 

[bart]

26 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

I know it and I don't want to change if for the reasons written above (two gains neccessary) and because I don't want to change it with every new game-update.

Just providing two diffferent trim options (high and low gains) for pitch trim is the easiest solution.

 

 

 

You're absolutely correct.

 

However there is a work around to currently have the standard vanilla trim, and also have a slow "fine" adjustment at the same time. I have now done this and have both bound to different hotas switches and it works. The drawback is, yes you will have to modify the .lua file after every update, but once you have the two lines of code saved somewhere convenient it takes just a few seconds to copy and paste them into the file to modify the .lua and once in sim go to your control bindings and re-set the bindings for the "fine" trim you just added in the .lua file. For now unless ED implement this as standard this is all we have. But it works and works well, and to me it's a minor inconvenience to update the .lua file in comparison to fighting the trim all the time whilst flying.

 

If you haven't seen the post here is a link to it. The post you want with the two extra lines of code to add the extra "fine" trim bindings is on the 5th post down.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by bart

[Ercoupe]

I am trimming this airplane for hands off flying with no problem at all. I'm not understanding why people are having issues. The only thing I can figure is that you are holding the trim button down rather than tapping it. You don't want to press and hold it...she'll be all over the place. Short taps until you get the desired results. 

[Bremspropeller]

50 minutes ago, Ercoupe said:

Short taps until you get the desired results. 

 

Nope. It's too coarse.