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Option to remove CFTs


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I don't understand why someone would get upset by people wanting to fly without CFTs.  I think the point of the simulator is to emulate the technical specs of an airplane and be able to do things that the military does as well as experiment with things you would never see in real life.  An example would be a P51 dogfighting a F-16.

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12 hours ago, PD919 said:

I don't understand why someone would get upset by people wanting to fly without CFTs. 

The issue isn't people wanting to fly without CFTs, the issue is people expecting/demanding the ability to do so when it means the devs would have to make a second full flight model for a non-operational condition.  The work involved is not trivial.

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  • 1 month later...

I think this is an Operation Southern Watch bird:

 

GkkIyu1.jpg

 

Very strange that the 93 manual expressly does not list the CFT stations for AMRAAM as it does for Sparrow. I remember reading something about "eagle claw" fuselage stations for the AMRAAM getting frozen on initial deployments and perhaps it had yet to be overcome by 93

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1 hour ago, henshao said:

I think this is an Operation Southern Watch bird:

 

GkkIyu1.jpg

 

Very strange that the 93 manual expressly does not list the CFT stations for AMRAAM as it does for Sparrow. I remember reading something about "eagle claw" fuselage stations for the AMRAAM getting frozen on initial deployments and perhaps it had yet to be overcome by 93

I might be losing my mind, but the E model only has 1 fuselage station (apart from the NAVFLIR/TPOD stations) which is the centerline, I don’t know how it would put AMRAAMs on the fuselage.  The “Eagle Claws” are part of the CFT.  
 

It’s likely that in ‘93 the CFTs didn’t have the right configuration for AMRAAMs yet.  Unlike the wing stations, A/A missiles on the CFTs require an ejection system of some kind.  It’s possible the intent was to use the same system as the AIM-7 but was found to be incompatible so they kept it delegated to wing-stations for the time being.  The pneumatic store ejection system wouldn’t be invented for another 6 or so years, and pyrotechnic ejection systems are quite finicky .  Remember that the AMRAAM didn’t enter service until two years prior in late ‘91, so compatibility issues were still getting worked out.  I imagine integration on the CFTs was a pretty low priority since A/A is not the primary mission for the E model.

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The main task I plan to use the F-15E for is Air-to-Air, I expect the F-15E that Razbam is modeling to be able to carry more than 4 air-to-air missiles.

I should use the F-15C for this task but it is a low fidelity* module.

main-qimg-ccde7b7cc6de07c2116548f27e2b30


Edited by Tavo89
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9 hours ago, Coole28 said:

I might be losing my mind, but the E model only has 1 fuselage station (apart from the NAVFLIR/TPOD stations) which is the centerline, I don’t know how it would put AMRAAMs on the fuselage.  The “Eagle Claws” are part of the CFT. 

I don't know if you are just being facetious about CFT removal 🙂 or really forgot that the F-15E has the same 5 fuselage stations as every eagle

3 hours ago, Tavo89 said:

The main task I plan to use the F-15E for is Air-to-Air, I expect the F-15E that Razbam is modeling to be able to carry more than 4 air-to-air missiles.

I should use the F-15C for this task but it is a low quality module.

 

The DCS F-15C is not low 'quality'; it is low 'fidelity' (particularly systems fidelity). The flight model is considered Professional level, at least for a clean jet being hand flown*. I hate to break it to you but the F-15E is somewhat hamstrung compared to the F-15C in air to air. It has lost a lot of the F-15C's underrated low speed high alpha capacity. Further unlike the "smooth" fuel-only -3CFTs the F-15E tanks are heavy, draggy, on an already heavier draggier airframe and impose somewhat steep mach restrictions when loaded even with only air to air missiles (unless these were rescinded and I don't know about it). They put bigger engines by necessity. That said those big -229s are very powerful in the medium supersonic regime and the mudhen has ETERNAL fuel supply; an extremely powerful radar with datalink and top-tier weaponry. So just fly it like an F-14A and you should be good (ie be very careful who you merge with)

 

*there are discrepancies even here but they are minor


Edited by henshao
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1 hour ago, henshao said:

The DCS F-15C is not low 'quality'; it is low 'fidelity' (particularly systems fidelity). The flight model is considered Professional level, at least for a clean jet being hand flown*. I hate to break it to you but the F-15E is somewhat hamstrung compared to the F-15C in air to air. It has lost a lot of the F-15C's underrated low speed high alpha capacity. Further unlike the "smooth" fuel-only -3CFTs the F-15E tanks are heavy, draggy, on an already heavier draggier airframe and impose somewhat steep mach restrictions when loaded even with only air to air missiles (unless these were rescinded and I don't know about it). They put bigger engines by necessity. That said those big -229s are very powerful in the medium supersonic regime and the mudhen has ETERNAL fuel supply; an extremely powerful radar with datalink and top-tier weaponry. So just fly it like an F-14A and you should be good (ie be very careful who you merge with)

 

*there are discrepancies even here but they are minor

 

I will test its capabilities before I buy it.

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11 hours ago, henshao said:

I don't know if you are just being facetious about CFT removal 🙂 or really forgot that the F-15E has the same 5 fuselage stations as every eagle

I must be losing my mind then, I can’t find anything that suggests there are useable fuselage stations on the E model.  Everything suggests that those stations were moved to the CFTs.  Can you show me where the fuselage stations are on the E model?  All the pictures I found suggest they have been moved to the CFTs and no longer exist.202217DB-0871-4B0D-934C-CE0AA250920D.jpeg

85821618-5CDD-487D-9962-7D327D02813B.jpeg

F11FBB2D-80B1-49CC-AA75-8E396553C3AA.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, Spurts said:

@Coole28 the fuselage stations are COVERED by the CFTs and are REPLICATED on the CFTs.  

Thats what I thought, there are only the centerline/pod stations on the fuselage and the lower CFT stations take the place of the neutered fuselage “cheek” stations.  So AIM-120s can only be put on the CFTs or wing stations.

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2 hours ago, Coole28 said:

Thats what I thought, there are only the centerline/pod stations on the fuselage and the lower CFT stations take the place of the neutered fuselage “cheek” stations.  So AIM-120s can only be put on the CFTs or wing stations.

I don't know what you mean by "neutered" or "can only" but as delivered by McDonnell your jet supports AMRAAM and Sparrow from the fuselage.

 

52131486888_21c4ee8e31_b.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, henshao said:

I don't know what you mean by "neutered" or "can only" but as delivered by McDonnell your jet supports AMRAAM and Sparrow from the fuselage.

I see what you mean, you’re talking about flying WITHOUT the CFTs.  Since (as discussed in depth earlier) E models only operate with CFTs attached, I thought you meant attaching AAMs to the fuselage while the CFTs are attached.

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On 8/4/2022 at 4:38 AM, henshao said:

I hate to break it to you but the F-15E is somewhat hamstrung compared to the F-15C in air to air. It has lost a lot of the F-15C's underrated low speed high alpha capacity.

The F-15E has actually a better low speed/high alpha capability, than the C/D models. It has a re-defined flight control system and an improved handling characteristic. But this advantage on the C model is only available without the CFTs -> which is not the normal operational setup for the E. Loop is closed. 

By the way, the more heavier EX model is even more capable, even with CFTs, due to the digital fly by wire system. 

Boeing’s F-15 Chief Test Pilot Matt “Phat” Giese:

“When that was done — not surprisingly — we had extra gas because that's another big advantage of this platform, the fuel capacity with the CFTs. With that extra gas, Mike Quintini and I decided we deserved a little high alpha maneuvering for our efforts.” Giese says they demonstrated “tailslides and other advanced control and handling maneuvers just to show that this thing is a really good slow-speed fighter in addition to a high-speed fighter.”

Actually, the tailslide is not an impossible magic trick fro the F-15 Eagle airframe/engine combo, since the very first F-15A test program also included this kind of maneuvering. But the problem is is attitude to the flat spin and especially the inverted flat spin, which - actually both of them - could be unrecoverable situation. It seems the EX is much safer in this case. 

 

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3 hours ago, Allesmor Obranna said:

The F-15E has actually a better low speed/high alpha capability, than the C/D models. It has a re-defined flight control system and an improved handling characteristic. But this advantage on the C model is only available without the CFTs -> which is not the normal operational setup for the E. Loop is closed. 

By the way, the more heavier EX model is even more capable, even with CFTs, due to the digital fly by wire system. 

Boeing’s F-15 Chief Test Pilot Matt “Phat” Giese:

“When that was done — not surprisingly — we had extra gas because that's another big advantage of this platform, the fuel capacity with the CFTs. With that extra gas, Mike Quintini and I decided we deserved a little high alpha maneuvering for our efforts.” Giese says they demonstrated “tailslides and other advanced control and handling maneuvers just to show that this thing is a really good slow-speed fighter in addition to a high-speed fighter.”

Actually, the tailslide is not an impossible magic trick fro the F-15 Eagle airframe/engine combo, since the very first F-15A test program also included this kind of maneuvering. But the problem is is attitude to the flat spin and especially the inverted flat spin, which - actually both of them - could be unrecoverable situation. It seems the EX is much safer in this case. 

 

I know the AFCS on the E has some expanded capability compared to C for high alpha regime. And also I am aware EX has full fly by wire. I am curious about the empty weight of that bird, I hope Boeing appreciates the masterpiece they have inherited (I still think the silent eagle might have sold had they offered carriage of stealth weapons pods from F-18) The F-15 is a very underrated 1 circle fighter, for similar fuel load the clean F-18A and F-15C have sea level max thrust stall speeds within 5 knots of each other. All this being said I would gladly select a C eagle to go against a CFT eagle in a one circle despite the improvements 🙂 McDonnell did not leave a lot on the table as it is, one area fly by wire might expand for instance the F-15 does not technically "stall" under normal conditions as the stabilator deflection range is designed to stop just short of the wing actually stalling. Normally an F-15 under power or otherwise at max aft stick will always settle into a high alpha ~35 deg "glide" but not a true stall

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1 hour ago, henshao said:

I know the AFCS on the E has some expanded capability compared to C for high alpha regime. And also I am aware EX has full fly by wire. I am curious about the empty weight of that bird, I hope Boeing appreciates the masterpiece they have inherited (I still think the silent eagle might have sold had they offered carriage of stealth weapons pods from F-18) The F-15 is a very underrated 1 circle fighter, for similar fuel load the clean F-18A and F-15C have sea level max thrust stall speeds within 5 knots of each other. All this being said I would gladly select a C eagle to go against a CFT eagle in a one circle despite the improvements 🙂 McDonnell did not leave a lot on the table as it is, one area fly by wire might expand for instance the F-15 does not technically "stall" under normal conditions as the stabilator deflection range is designed to stop just short of the wing actually stalling. Normally an F-15 under power or otherwise at max aft stick will always settle into a high alpha ~35 deg "glide" but not a true stall

 

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The entire thread is a wash,

The F-15E doesn't have CFTs, it has Fast Packs. (Well now they call them CFT's just because).

And the only time they ever really flew with them off is for testing purposes.

as for Weapons stations under fastpacks, Umm, those are the fastpack interfaces for the stations on the fastpacks and/or Fastpacks w/ Electronics...


 


Edited by SkateZilla
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