Apache Datalink

[baksie]

So will the Apache have a data link and how will it work? Similar to the KA 50 ?

[Raptor9]

More or less. Kinda like emailing target points, instead of live SPI broadcasting like the A-10 SADL.

 

No clue what the ED implementation of it will be like though.

[M1Combat]

Isn't it a 2008 bird???  Why wouldn't it use Link16??  Because it's army probably??

[llOPPOTATOll]

51 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

Isn't it a 2008 bird???  Why wouldn't it use Link16??  Because it's army probably??

The AH-64D doesnt use Link 16, it uses IDM. The IDM it uses is quite a bit different than the F-16 IDM though.

[Raptor9]

9 hours ago, M1Combat said:

Isn't it a 2008 bird???  Why wouldn't it use Link16??  Because it's army probably??

 

Only AH-64E's have Link16, and that only started being equipped several years ago. Link16 is a joint/NATO datalink system, and up until the past decade the Army wasn't as focused on joint interoperability at that level for Attack Aviation.

 

According to Wags' cockpit controls PDF he posted on the forums a while back, it's a 2005-2010 avionics version, not specifically 2008. And based on the equipment seen installed on the aircraft in the videos, it fits that timeframe.

[Yuto]

AH-64D don't use LINK16 for datalink, Only AH-64E Version 4s and onwards iirc got LINK16

 

the AH-64D has 3 Datalinks

• AFAPD or Air Force Applications Program Development (longbow protocol), JVMF or Joint Variable Message Format (tactical Internet or Fire support) And Tacfire

   

  Heres an image of the LINK16 antenna on the AH-64E

Edited September 23, 2021 by Yuto

[M1Combat]

Thanks for the clarifications :).

[Gunrun_KS]

I'm wondering if we will be able to use the Kiowa/Apache to hand-off targets to each other and use LOBL and LOAL modes like the good ol' days.

[Raptor9]

4 hours ago, Gunrun_KS said:

I'm wondering if we will be able to use the Kiowa/Apache to hand-off targets to each other and use LOBL and LOAL modes like the good ol' days.

 

The Kiowa and Apache both use coded lasers like the A-10, F-16, F-18 and such. However, from my understanding the Kiowa would be like a LANTIRN-equipped F-14 in that it has a designator, but no laser spot tracker, whereas the AH-64 does have a laser spot tracker. So the 64 could designate targets for the Kiowa's Hellfire missiles, but would have to verbally tell the Kiowa where the target is via talk-on or coordinate readback.

 

There was an older system that allowed 64s and 58s to send/receive targets over a "datalink", but that system was rarely used, plus that would require 3 assumptions to function:

1) ED models it in the AH-64

2) Polychop models it in the OH-58

3) They've both configured the multiplayer coding in their respective modules to talk to each other to achieve the compatibility when players are online.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Raptor9

[Yuto]

On 10/10/2021 at 7:24 AM, Gunrun_KS said:

I'm wondering if we will be able to use the Kiowa/Apache to hand-off targets to each other and use LOBL and LOAL modes like the good ol' days.

Both the Kiowa and Apache use JVMF and TACFIRE, iirc it also has a target handover system ( TACFIRE ATHS, airborne Target Handover System)

 

TACFIRE was supposed to be the artillery datalink, which KW had in the form of ATHS (Airborne Target Handover System). Never came to practical use. Succeeded by JVMF (Joint Variable Message Format). Also never used for "real world" digital fires.

Both Apache and Kiowa can LOAL and LOBL.

 

so it could happen but that is if Polychop and ED work together to make it work, its not an easy system to implement the JVMF and the TACFIRE system is a very complex system, i see it happening since it would add more capability to the Kiowa but it might take time, plus the Kiowa is releasing in a complete State so it might already have the TACFIRE ATHS and JVMF both implemented, which would leave ED to work with Polychop to implement it for MP and SP.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Yuto

[Morat]

Will it be possible for Apache and A-10C2 to datalink to each other?

Does it go as far as being in the same network group on the TAD on the A10?

I'd be excited if this were true!

Cheers,

Morat

[Raptor9]

35 minutes ago, Morat said:

Will it be possible for Apache and A-10C2 to datalink to each other?

Nope

36 minutes ago, Morat said:

Does it go as far as being in the same network group on the TAD on the A10?

Completely different types unfortunately and not compatible, not even through a "bridge" asset.

[AvroLanc]

No, the datalink/IDM is only available to talk to other Longbows. There’s a few networks you can connect to….but I believe the Longbow TI, or Tactical Internet is the most important. It allows you to send and receive a bunch of stuff to fellow Longbow Apaches…..waypoints, routes, target points, FCR targets, PFZs, No fire Zones etc. Also free text messages. 
 

There’s also the ability to use ATHS and TACFIRE networks, but I believe these are purely used to call in air/artillery fire support and also link with observation Kiowas. Don’t know how much use these features had in real life. Heard different things about that. ED will probably omit these bits.

[Raptor9]

On 10/13/2021 at 8:33 AM, AvroLanc said:

the Longbow TI, or Tactical Internet

The LB datalink and Tactical Internet are two different things.

[AvroLanc]

4 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

The Longbow and Tactical Internet are two different things.

Ah, OK. Thanks for the correction. 

Are you able to expand at all? Was the datalink generally a big thing for everyday employment? Or did voice and LST/Visual talkon type techniques still rule?

[Raptor9]

1 minute ago, AvroLanc said:

Are you able to expand at all? Was the datalink generally a big thing for everyday employment? Or did voice and LST/Visual talkon type techniques still rule?

Like most things in the military, it depends. Different situations, different techniques.

[Morat]

well that sucks, c'mon USA - sort it out!

I guess I'll just follow the smoke and lend a hand where I can!

[Gunrun_KS]

Good information guys.  Besides working with these bad boys in RL.  My knowledge is limited to LB2

[Yuto]

18 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

No, the datalink/IDM is only available to talk to other Longbows. There’s a few networks you can connect to….but I believe the Longbow TI, or Tactical Internet is the most important. It allows you to send and receive a bunch of stuff to fellow Longbow Apaches…..waypoints, routes, target points, FCR targets, PFZs, No fire Zones etc. Also free text messages. 
 

There’s also the ability to use ATHS and TACFIRE networks, but I believe these are purely used to call in air/artillery fire support and also link with observation Kiowas. Don’t know how much use these features had in real life. Heard different things about that. ED will probably omit these bits.

FYI the TACFIRE-ATHS has been removed from the E and iirc the late D versions of the Apache it was obsolete back in 2005, it was a shitty system just from reading about it u can tell its useless.

the Kiowas dont or barely use the TACFIRE-ATHS and JVMF (Tactical internet) systems for whatever reason the Kiowas used comms to communicate with other assets and apaches this was explained by a Kiowa pilot in the Polychop server they just never or barely used the datalinks, the apaches used the JVMF system regularly, this is part of the reason why the Kiowa got retired, apache did its job better and more effectively, TACFIRE was Obsolete hence why it got removed from the Es, LINK16 replaced TACFIRE on the Echos, they still use JVMF and the AFAPD (longbow protocol).

THE JVMF can also call in Artillery using the FS protocol 

19 hours ago, Morat said:

Will it be possible for Apache and A-10C2 to datalink to each other?

Does it go as far as being in the same network group on the TAD on the A10?

I'd be excited if this were true!

Cheers,

Morat

A-10C2s had 0 Datalinks to share with the Apache, if u want to talk with a fixed wing u use comms this is with the D version of the apache, Echos like i said got LINK16 so they have an easier job sharing info with other aircraft that use LINK16

17 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

Ah, OK. Thanks for the correction. 

Are you able to expand at all? Was the datalink generally a big thing for everyday employment? Or did voice and LST/Visual talkon type techniques still rule?

the Longbow Protocol Datalink isn't the JVMF (Tactical internet) its 2 Different Datalinks, ive heard from a Pilot that they used the JVMF when Radio silence is a thing so instead of using the Radio to talk with the other Apaches they use JVMF to send messages back and forth, it depends on the situation that u are in  

17 hours ago, Morat said:

well that sucks, c'mon USA - sort it out!

I guess I'll just follow the smoke and lend a hand where I can!

LST, Smoke and Comms is what u should rely on when talking with other Fixed wing units 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Yuto

[Raptor9]

Ok, there are number of inaccuracies with that post.  Not trying to be a jerk, but there are.

3 hours ago, Yuto said:

this is part of the reason why the Kiowa got retired, apache did its job better and more effectively

Negative. The Apache requires more resources and logistics (parts, manpower, money, fuel, etc) to accomplish the same mission as the Kiowa.  The Kiowa was divested to remove an entire aircraft from the Army inventory because of DoD fiscal limitations at the time, and because the Army acquisitions process failed multiple times in a row to replace the Kiowa Warrior with an armed scout helicopter.  Not for technical or doctrinal reasons, but because the acquisitions process itself failed.  This is part of the reasons why they are trying again with FARA.

Can the Apache do the armed reconnaissance mission? Yes.  Can it do it as well or better than the Kiowa? No.

3 hours ago, Yuto said:

TACFIRE was Obsolete hence why it got removed from the Es, LINK16 replaced TACFIRE on the Echos

TACFIRE was divested in ~2012 from 64D's, it was never in 64E's.  Link16 didn't replace any existing datalink protocol, it was an addition to the Apache toolkit to improve joint interoperability on the modern battlefield.

3 hours ago, Yuto said:

THE JVMF can also call in Artillery using the FS protocol 

A-10C2s had 0 Datalinks to share with the Apache, if u want to talk with a fixed wing u use comms this is with the D version of the apache, Echos like i said got LINK16 so they have an easier job sharing info with other aircraft that use LINK16

the Longbow Protocol Datalink isn't the JVMF (Tactical internet) its 2 Different Datalinks, ive heard from a Pilot that they used the JVMF when Radio silence is a thing so instead of using the Radio to talk with the other Apaches they use JVMF to send messages back and forth, it depends on the situation that u are in 

Not quite an accurate breakdown of how all the terms inter-relate to each other, but a roll-up to be more explicit:

DCS A-10C uses SADL, which is not compatible with any model of Apache, D or E.  There are some discussions on the forums on whether an AWACS or other such asset could act as a bridge between Link16 and SADL, allowing exchange of tracks or other data across those links, but nothing that can be verified using unclassified, open source information.  Having said that, real-world A-10C's are currently being fitted with Link16 terminals as well so they can integrate with other platforms, but the DCS A-10C (both versions) is still limited to SADL.

"JVMF" itself isn't a datalink type or a protocol.  It's a type of message used by some datalink systems.  That's all I will say about that to keep it in the unclassified, open source realm.  More information could probably found on the internet, but I have to go work.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Raptor9

[FalcoGer]

From what I have read you can use any radio for the IDM. Does that include the HF radio? Would be awesome for that non LOS datalink, although I wonder if you can do voice and data on the same radio.

[Raptor9]

34 minutes ago, FalcoGer said:

From what I have read you can use any radio for the IDM. Does that include the HF radio? Would be awesome for that non LOS datalink, although I wonder if you can do voice and data on the same radio.

This is starting to get into the potentially sensitive areas of comms usage, procedures, etc.

[QuiGon]

21 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

DCS A-10C uses SADL, which is not compatible with any model of Apache, D or E.

I'm a bit suprised, that the Apache isn't using SADL/EPLRS, as the latter is the US Army's own DL system, which the USAF interfaces with through SADL. At least that's my understanding.
So I'm kinda suprised, that the US Army Apache doesn't use the US Army DL system. How did that happen?

[Raptor9]

26 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I'm a bit suprised, that the Apache isn't using SADL/EPLRS, as the latter is the US Army's own DL system, which the USAF interfaces with through SADL. At least that's my understanding.
So I'm kinda suprised, that the US Army Apache doesn't use the US Army DL system. How did that happen?

Because the Army doesn't use SADL or the original form of EPLRS that SADL was supposed to interface with. The entire program was defunct years ago, and was never fielded to the Army. Unfortunately, the USAF had already fielded SADL in their A-10C upgrades and some F-16 versions.

[QuiGon]

9 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Because the Army doesn't use SADL or the original form of EPLRS that SADL was supposed to interface with. The entire program was defunct years ago, and was never fielded to the Army. Unfortunately, the USAF had already fielded SADL in their A-10C upgrades and some F-16 versions.

Damn, EPLRS isn't in use at all? I didn't know that! Interesting.

Edited October 15, 2021 by QuiGon