BVR tactics against low flying targets

[Wychmaster]

I finally started to practice air-to-air with the hornet. After dozens of youtube videos on that topic (GrowlingSidewinder for example) I first tried fighting AI MiG-29 with R-77 which wasn't that hard even on Ace level. Now I could have started training against other AI aircrafts but I thaught it would be better to just try multiplayer to get a better learning effect. So I joined the GrowlingSidewinder server and had a few test flights. I wasn't bashed as hard as I expected but I found something that I am struggling with: Low flying targets.

 

It might not be a word-by-word quote but one thing GrowlingSidewinder kept repeating in his videos was: "As an AMRAAM capable aircraft you want to fly high. Flying low will get you killed". Does make sense to me since it gives you a range advantage agains aircraft without active radar missiles.

 

However, my problem was that my radar could not pick up low flying targets that maneuvered between the mountains (I was between 30k and 40k feet) until I ate a missile myself (<10nm). While it was a stupid target fixation mistake, to get so close, I wonder how to fight low flying enemy fighters? My current agenda is now to just stay out of their WEZ and break away if I can't pick them up on time but I am curious if there are other options.

I thougt of just shooting some pitbull AMRAAMS into their direction and then go cold but I am not sure how high the chances are that they pick a target.

 

To my understanding the situation is not ideal to begin with due to the ground clutter working to their advantage but I am not sure if my radar setup couldn't be improved. I usually use MED PRF for close targets (If I don't forget to switch), a 4bar scan with 20 or 40 degree and the elevation set to the correct height. The problems I run into is that I constantly have to adjust elevation and azimuth the closer the target gets, which distracts me from paying attention to my own defense. Maybe one of the ACM modes is a better solution here, but  since it is extremely hard to visually find a target hiding in the dirt I don't know if this is a good choice (at least for me - playing in VR).

 

Sidenote:

I was also wondering, how those targets appeared on datalink in the first place. Sometimes, the next friendly unit was double of my distance away and someone must have picked them up to appear in DL. Is the AWACS radar maybe so much more powerful?

[Harker]

The Hornet's radar should definitely have look-down capability, it's just that ED has modeled an unrealistic detection range drop for look-down, that only takes how much below the horizon the target is.

In DCS, it doesn't matter if the target is flying at 20,000 ft or 5 ft above the ground. As long as it's below the horizon for your radar, you'll have a very hard time picking them up and it'll often be impossible, which is very unrealistic.

So, right now, I can't offer good advice on how to stay high and detect low. Maybe consider going to a medium altitude, so the above "feature" has a lower impact.

[GumidekCZ]

When fighting against low bad guys, you have to think about this current limitation.

I hope, that they will improve look down scan radar model as soon as EDs free human resources will be available.

Edited September 26, 2021 by GumidekCZ

[Airhunter]

I guess this is just a current bug with the Hornet's lookdown capability. Hornet has insane SA and if you have good radar mech (proper scan techniques) you should be picking up most low flying targets even in valleys if you are high enough. It becomes a geometry problem. Also, when actively scanning, avoid having the radar scan in one spot and at one elevation for say longer than 10 secods. Your MSI (datalink feed) is great but it also won't see absolutely everything and this is where your own radar scan becomes so much more important. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Airhunter

[Oceandar]

I'm no expert about how radar works but can give you few advices about the gameplay in GS as I reguler player on this server.
Build better SA by monitor your RWR and SA page and do not fix on one target. Play your own game and not fall into their game. If you cant track the bandit flying low around the mountains then back off and extend. Bait them to the open area where you can easily pick them. Against Red fighters with EO you also want to becareful with ET. Zoom the contact looking for smoke trail or as hornet now able to track incoming missile you can evade early, pop some flares or trolling him by shooting down his missile lol.

Good luck

[naizarak]

working as intended

[Jenson]

Those non-AI players in multiplayer server are like the fanatic war boys in Mad Max. 

[Wychmaster]

Sorry for my late reply, was a bit busy lately.

 

@GumidekCZ @Harker

Thank you for pointing me towards these bug reports. I didn't even think of the possibility of running into a bug. I just thought I am doing something wrong. Anyway, good to know that I don't even have to try locking them and need to adjust my strategy until it might be changed by ED. 

 

Am 27.9.2021 um 02:07 schrieb Oceandar:

I'm no expert about how radar works but can give you few advices about the gameplay in GS as I reguler player on this server.
Build better SA by monitor your RWR and SA page and do not fix on one target. Play your own game and not fall into their game. If you cant track the bandit flying low around the mountains then back off and extend. Bait them to the open area where you can easily pick them. Against Red fighters with EO you also want to becareful with ET. Zoom the contact looking for smoke trail or as hornet now able to track incoming missile you can evade early, pop some flares or trolling him by shooting down his missile lol.

Good luck

 

Thank you for the hints. That is basically what I try to practice and why I joined the GS server. I am aware of most of the things you mentioned but unfortunately, knowing something and actually being able to use this knowledge in the heat of a battle are not the same. So I have to practice more and more  It is easy to get overwhelmed by all the systems you need to monitor.

 

At least I know now that trying to get a lock on a low flying target while being high doesn't make any sense ATM. So I will try sending some pitbull-AMRAAMS into their direction and look how it works  

[Brass2-1]

If memory serves, a target needs to be within 10 or 15 NM for a pitbull AMRAAM to track at all, and that’s optimistic. 
Are you making use of TWS-Auto? You mention constantly manipulating the radar to keep the target within your scan volume, if you’re using the auto mode of TWS you’ll alleviate some of that work. The look down capability will still be limited due to DCS’ configuration. 

[Bluto74]

If they are low, get below them  About 1000 feet.  If they are low then they are at the same altitude disadvantage as you in regards to missile max range and energy.