Me and my simple Viper

[SmoglessPanic]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The Viper is really pilot-friendly, I literally learned it when I was 14 years old. Of course, I did have Pete "Boomer" Boonani to guide me with his excellent Falcon 4.0 manual, but hey, it's still quite something.  It's definitely less fiddly than the Hornet, and doesn't suffer nearly as much from the lack of DTC implementation in DCS. One thing that initially threw me off when I was first learning it was that it's so steerpoint-dependent in most of the A/G modes, I hope they get the markpoints done in the next update.

 

Man! Trying to figure out that manual when I was 14 or 15 WITHOUT Youtube or online sources was crazy. I remember certain concepts I understood but other things (TMS, DMS, SOI, etc) I did not understand. I somehow made it by with the huge foldout key-binging poster and just flat out practicing my favorite weapons. Falcon 4.0 was such a blast.

 

I used to love the Hornet (was the fist model airplane I built) but ever since Falcon 4.0 I've always been a Viper guy. 

 

Such awesome memories.

 

I got into DCS thinking there was a Viper. I then found out they had the Hornet so I decided to go for that as my first full fidelity module. I enjoyed the Hornet but always wanted the Viper, I've been flying the Viper since the first day it was released and haven't touched the Hornet since. I don't care what state the Viper is in, that's what I fly, that's my BIRD!

 

Love the Viper!

[Rhinozherous]

Cockpit and avionics philosophy including the weapon Systems is highly intuitive in the Viper. The Hornet is unnecessarily complicated... I think that is the difference between navy and air force. I love the viper! 

[Digitalvole]

I’m going to be the guy at the party who gets asked to leave

 

I desperately want to love the Viper, it’s always been one of my fav planes since watching iron eagle as a kid. But I keep on ending up in the Hornet.

Maybe it’s because the Hornet is more multi role capable at the moment, which is great for liberation campaigns. Though this is sure to balance out though updates.

 

Maybe its because pressing hundreds of buttons in the Hornet makes me feel clever. I always feel I must be doing it wrong in the Viper.

 

Maybe (and I think this is the crux of it) it’s because the Hornet it a bit easier on my eyes in VR. ED have greatly improved the mfds in the viper but there just a bit too small for the res of VR and there’s not much Ed can do about that. Everything is bigger in the hornet, which makes vr flying a bit less headache inducing.

 

Alas, I wanted so much to fall in love with the beautiful Viper. But it seems I got married to a fat lass before we met.

[statrekmike]

Honestly? While this might be (unfortunately) controversial to say, I don't really find the Hornet to be more complicated to learn than the Viper because at the end of the day, it is all the same when you open up the manuals and put some time into following along with the listed procedures. I can see how going from the Viper to the Hornet may feel awkward at first but in terms of actually learning on a system by system, procedure by procedure basis? The manuals tend to even out the difficulty curve.

 Another contributing factor is the expectations that one brings into a given module learning experience. When I start learning a module, I try to approach it fresh. I don't really go into it with a lot of expectations built around other aircraft and as such, I tend to take each one as its own distinct experience where the differences are the interesting part. I don't put any real thought into (for example) the throttle response difference between the F-14 and the F/A-18, I just get a feel for each and take them for what they are.

  When the F-16 is further along in its early access (roughly to the point where the Hornet is now), I will really start digging into it and I suspect that learning it will be just like learning all the other modules. I will open the manual (and maybe Chuck's guide on the side) and figure out how it all works step by step. Thus far, that process has always been pretty much the same and it always seems to work out. 

[Odey]

 The only difference is how you tell the jet how to do something. I agree that the Viper is easier until I have to use the ICP. In the Hornet the DDI's are utilized more verses the ICP in the Viper. In the Hornet you hit the UFC button on the DDI to access settings. In the Viper you kind of do both. Sometimes you enter parameters om the MFD sometimes with the ICP. However, the most glaring and infuriating thing that reminds you that your first ride was a Viper is....

 

 

...when you're driving a Hornet and your AMRAAM wont come off the rail because you're on the pickle button !!! 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Odey

[Ignition]

For me the most complex of the F-16 is the SPI, because it depends on the mode selected in each weapon, it's not independent like in the F-18 or A-10.

It happened to me more than once when I set a waypoint for a SPI but I'm for example in Bore with a maverick and the SPI now it's something "impossible" with hundreds of miles.

In the F-16 you need to think how you want to attack and then where and for me that's not the most simple way fo thinking.

[wilbur81]

19 hours ago, Odey said:

 The only difference is how you tell the jet how to do something. I agree that the Viper is easier until I have to use the ICP. In the Hornet the DDI's are utilized more verses the ICP in the Viper. In the Hornet you hit the UFC button on the DDI to access settings. In the Viper you kind of do both. Sometimes you enter parameters om the MFD sometimes with the ICP. However, the most glaring and infuriating thing that reminds you that your first ride was a Viper is....

 

 

...when you're driving a Hornet and your AMRAAM wont come off the rail because you're on the pickle button !!! 

 

Yeah, I've done that quite a few times when taking the Eagle or Viper for a spin after all my Hornet time... squeezing that trigger and no missiles.  It seems that the whole "simplicity" thing is mostly about what you're used to. I find the Hornet simpler than the Viper as I love that my UFC has all the modes/displays right there in the scratch pad windows. I find the Viper's DED complicated because it's small, kind of out of the way, and has many sub-menus that have to be navigated with the old 4-way switch. I also find the Hornet's HUD WAY simpler... whereas the Viper's displays a good deal more information... likely in an effort to make up for only two MFDs? But again, if I'd started with the Viper, I'm sure and say the opposite.

Edited October 17, 2021 by wilbur81

[TobiasA]

The way it is meant to be used is that you set up the F-16 BEFORE entering the fight, on the runway, during transit, but way before fence in.
You set it up, and then you got almost everything you actually use on the HOTAS. You got:
- MRM override
- DGFT override
- A-A mode
- A-G mode
- NAV mode

Make use of it, every mode can store its own settings. Three of those are available on the HOTAS (one "base mode" being AA, AG or NAV and the two overrides).
You go AG master mode, put TGP to one MFD, HSD, WPN and SMS to the other one. There you go, having two sets available for AG mode that you can switch with missile step / DMS and AA mode is just a flick of a switch away with the MRM or DGFT override which doesn't even mess with your AG mode settings. You press DMS right (or left) and switch to HSD, check the situation and continue your run with the WPN page just one more click on the stick away.
You get jumped? You flick the override to MRM and keep the bugger busy, as soon as you cancel the override all your settings are back and you are back on track.

Learn the HOTAS and you master the F-16. There are a lot of things you can do in the DED, but you do most of it before your wheels leave the ground. Once you are in the air, it is a master in simplicity. But: If you want to be really good in it, you'll have to spend the majority of hours in it. You can be excellent in one module, good in another one but it is hard to excel in a third.
For me, the one I picked for "excellent" is the F-16, "good" for the Viggen and... Well, it is hard to be somewhat proficient in the F-14 then tbh.
Hope I'll get the Apache right.
Looking back, about half of my modules just support ED or a 3rd party developer.

[Hulkbust44]

Yep, I find the Hornet complex systems-wise, but sterile and boring when it comes to actually flying it. I get that this is what makes it such an effective platform in the real world, but it feels more like data entry than piloting. Traps are fun, but I much prefer the Tomcat for naval ops ... and flight dynamics ... and just about everything.
 
I had zero interest in the Viper, but bought it on a whim when it was on a crazy low sale and I had points to use up (ended up being only a few bucks more than most 50% off modules). Maybe it's because I had no expectations, but I enjoy the Viper immensely now. The view, the cockpit ergonomics, the approach to systems - it all feels so much more comfortable, manageable, and just a nicer place to spend time in. I don't need one plane to do everything, which is a major attraction of the Hornet. But the Hornet kind of feels like a Warthog in a different guise. I would happily pay full price for the Viper at this point. This is a great thing about DCS - different folks, different strokes.
 
I can't wait for the Viper to steal some of the Hornet's limelight when it comes to content creation though.

Once ED fixes the Hornet (and that's basically every system) you'll find that it does everything much better than the Viper in way you never thought possible :)

Mobius708

[Hulkbust44]

The way it is meant to be used is that you set up the F-16 BEFORE entering the fight, on the runway, during transit, but way before fence in.
You set it up, and then you got almost everything you actually use on the HOTAS. You got:
- MRM override
- DGFT override
- A-A mode
- A-G mode
- NAV mode
Make use of it, every mode can store its own settings. Three of those are available on the HOTAS (one "base mode" being AA, AG or NAV and the two overrides).
You go AG master mode, put TGP to one MFD, HSD, WPN and SMS to the other one. There you go, having two sets available for AG mode that you can switch with missile step / DMS and AA mode is just a flick of a switch away with the MRM or DGFT override which doesn't even mess with your AG mode settings. You press DMS right (or left) and switch to HSD, check the situation and continue your run with the WPN page just one more click on the stick away.
You get jumped? You flick the override to MRM and keep the bugger busy, as soon as you cancel the override all your settings are back and you are back on track.
Learn the HOTAS and you master the F-16. There are a lot of things you can do in the DED, but you do most of it before your wheels leave the ground. Once you are in the air, it is a master in simplicity. But: If you want to be really good in it, you'll have to spend the majority of hours in it. You can be excellent in one module, good in another one but it is hard to excel in a third.
For me, the one I picked for "excellent" is the F-16, "good" for the Viggen and... Well, it is hard to be somewhat proficient in the F-14 then tbh.
Hope I'll get the Apache right.
Looking back, about half of my modules just support ED or a 3rd party developer.

To be fair, the Hornet HOTAS is the same way(or, well should be, depends on what ED feels like implementing), and technically has a *lot* more functionality. It's not really anything special in the Viper when compared to the Hawg or Bug. Even the Harrier has a great system. It really all depends on how much of the aircrafts capabilities are HOTAS-able. A-10 has a ton of system capabilities for being just a CAS aircraft, so it has a system where basically everything is on the HOTAS. (Like even pre set aircraft wingspans for the gun funnel are cycled via DMS lol)

The Viper has a higher percentage of systems accessable with HOTAS compared to the Hornet, but the Hornet has much more HOTAS capability due to enhanced aircraft capabilities.

I do believe the Harrier is the only aircraft that can cue the TPOD via HOTAS at basically anytime. Real neat system with cuing FLIR and EW too.

Mobius708

[wowbagger]

1 hour ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Once ED fixes the Hornet (and that's basically every system) you'll find that it does everything much better than the Viper in way you never thought possible
...

But it will still fly like a Hornet and still have that cockpit.

[TobiasA]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Hulkbust44:

To be fair, the Hornet HOTAS is the same way(or, well should be, depends on what ED feels like implementing), and technically has a *lot* more functionality. It's not really anything special in the Viper when compared to the Hawg or Bug. Even the Harrier has a great system. It really all depends on how much of the aircrafts capabilities are HOTAS-able. A-10 has a ton of system capabilities for being just a CAS aircraft, so it has a system where basically everything is on the HOTAS. (Like even pre set aircraft wingspans for the gun funnel are cycled via DMS lol)

The Viper has a higher percentage of systems accessable with HOTAS compared to the Hornet, but the Hornet has much more HOTAS capability due to enhanced aircraft capabilities.

I do believe the Harrier is the only aircraft that can cue the TPOD via HOTAS at basically anytime. Real neat system with cuing FLIR and EW too.

Mobius708
 

I can't say, after the state of the F-16 I skipped the hornet. Might buy it some day, but now that I have the Viggen and the F-14 it ain't that likely in the near future. 

All I can say is that the Viper has an outstanding concept of operation. Everything you need is one or two clicks away, easily memorable and accessible in the heat of the battle. 

I don't know if the hornet comes close, and I won't compare. I came here for the F-16, found other nice planes, will soon have the Apache and absolutely love the F-16. Because it is the most awesome plane to fly with that bubble canopy, easy to use systems, agility and flexibility as a multirole platform. And it will probably be the most capable SEAD platform in DCS when we get the HTS. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by TobiasA
Pressed enter too early

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 10/17/2021 at 6:30 PM, wilbur81 said:

It seems that the whole "simplicity" thing is mostly about what you're used to.

Well, not to me. I flew in a number of dedicated Hornet squadrons for over a year and a half, and jumping in a Falcon is - to me at least - a lot more user friendly.
It's nice that we all have the chance to fly in aircraft we like and enjoy operating