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Slow Winds Over Deck - badly defined carrier speed or slow winds.


GumidekCZ

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Wind over deck and recover speed would be 25-30 knots in direction of landing axis. Not in BRC direction.

I need to say, that I didnt checked the campaign missions, only single and quickstart missions.

 

Persian Gulf FA-18C Case I Carrier Landing.miz:

Carrier WP0: 25kts WP1: 5kts

Headwind: 5kts

Result: Carrier slows down I player try to land with insuficitient WOD.

 

Persian Gulf FA-18 Strike Fighter.miz:

Carrier WP0: 11kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 4kts

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 15 knots.

 

FA-18C_IA_PG_Flown the Coop.miz

Carrier WP0: 21kts WP1: 21kts

!!! TAIL wind: 3kts !!!

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 18 knots.

 

FA-18C_IA_PG_Missile City.miz:

Carrier WP0: 0kts WP1: 27kts

Headwind: 7kts

Result: Carrier with WOD Overspeed 34 knots.

 

FA-18C_IA_PG_GOPLAT Defense.miz:

Carrier WP0: 17kts WP1: 17kts

Headwind: 4kts

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 21 knots.

 

FA-18C_MAR_IA_Hot Start.miz same as FA-18C_MAR_IA_Cold Dark.miz same as FA-18C_MAR_IA_Free Flight.miz:

Carrier WP0: 17kts WP1: 17kts

!!! TAIL wind: 4kts !!!

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 13 knots.

 

Caucasus FA-18C Aerial Refueling.miz:

Carrier WP0: 11kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 7kts

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 18 knots.

 

C-SUPERCARRIER-HORNET-COLD NIGHT START same as C-SUPERCARRIER-HORNET-COLD START.miz and C-SUPERCARRIER-HORNET-LAUNCH.miz

Carrier WP0: 10kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 15kts (45° port side)

Result: Carrier with WOD 24 knots, not bad, but wrong carrier course results more port wind than desirable for safe landing procedure.

 

Caucasus FA-18C Carrier Takeoff.miz

Carrier WP0: 11kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 7kts

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 18 knots.

 

Hornet 1989-Alert 5.miz

Carrier WP0: 20kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 5kts

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 16 knots.

 

Hornet 1989-CAS.miz:

Carrier WP0: 20kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 12kts

Result: Carrier with WOD 23 knots - could be little more, but almost ok.

 

Hornet 1989-OCA.miz

Carrier WP0: 18kts WP1: 18kts

Headwind: 12kts (20° Starbord side)

Result: Carrier with WOD 28 knots, not bad, but wrong carrier course results more starbord wind than desirable for safe landing procedure.

 

Caucasus FA-18C Case III Carrier Final Approach Landing.miz

Carrier WP0: 25kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 5kts

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 16 knots.

 

Caucasus FA-18C Carrier Cold Start.miz

Carrier WP0: 11kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 7kts

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 18 knots.

 

Caucasus FA-18C Case III Carrier Landing.miz

Carrier WP0: 25kts WP1: 11kts

Headwind: 5kts

Result: Carrier with insuficitient WOD 16 knots.

 

2-Figure1-1.png


Edited by GumidekCZ
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Supercarrier manual:

obrazek.png

So this is not true anymore?

 

@BIGNEWY do you think this is ok?:

Persian Gulf FA-18C Case I Carrier Landing.miz:

Carrier WP0: 25kts WP1: 5kts - Carrier slowing down as player try to land.

Headwind: 5kts

 

Hornet 1989-OCA.miz

Carrier WP0: 18kts WP1: 18kts

Headwind: 12kts (20° Starbord side)

Result: Carrier with WOD 28 knots, not bad, but wrong carrier course results more starbord wind than desirable for safe landing procedure.

NAVAIR 00-80T-104 :

8.4     EXCESSIVE WIND-OVER-DECK OPERATIONS

Winds starboard of the angle also adversely affect recovery conditions. The burble, aft of the ramp, becomes stronger and moves closer to the ship as the magnitude of recovery crosswind is increased. The airflow disturbance requires corrective pilot technique if the recovery crosswind  exceeds 7 knots  for all carriers. Even with corrective pilot technique, sinking speeds 3 to 6  feet  per  second  in  excess  of those experienced during normal (no recovery crosswind) operations can be expected. For these reasons, recovery headwind should be maintained as closely as possible to the optimum velocity and the centerline of the landing area. Shipboard  aircraft  recovery  operations with recovery crosswinds in excess of those specified should be avoided. Refer to Aircraft Recovery Bulletin No. 10-10.

 

WOD question is now answered to me by reading following document. So I will no more report any slow WOD if not slower than 3 knot for Hornet.

NAWCADPAX/TR-2002/71 :

8.2.1  SPEED DEFINITIONS

8.2.2  APPROACH SPEED

 

4.2.2.2  Performance Capabilities

 

 


Edited by BIGNEWY
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  • ED Team

Just to bring you up to speed with this I have spoken with the team, the carriers will try to get ideal conditions for recovery in real life but it's not always possible, this is reflected in these missions.  

To quote a source who has served over 5 years on US aircraft carriers (CV-67 and CVN-74) and large deck amphibs (LPH-9). He said he has seen flight operations all kinds of weather, with all kinds of wind.

Thanks

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56 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Just to bring you up to speed with this I have spoken with the team, the carriers will try to get ideal conditions for recovery in real life but it's not always possible, this is reflected in these missions.  

To quote a source who has served over 5 years on US aircraft carriers (CV-67 and CVN-74) and large deck amphibs (LPH-9). He said he has seen flight operations all kinds of weather, with all kinds of wind.

Thanks

Just trying clearing things up because there might be a misunderstanding. OP was saying that the carrier tries to maneuver to get the best wind regardless of the weather and it's not doing that in the missions.

The quote you provided doesn't say otherwise, it just says that there are flight operations in all kind of weather. This doesn't say anything about the carrier maneuvering for wind. It might be understood that there is a tactical reason to go somewhere else and the aircraft might just "deal with it"? If you understood the SME that way?

What I know is that during cyclic OPS the carrier maneuvers optimal for flight operations during a short time to launch/recover aircraft and then maneuvers again to go where it needs to be itself. That's also where the term "Charlie" time comes from. The ship draws a big C in the water maneuvering into the wind.

It just seems unlikely that the carrier would not do its best to make it safe with how dangerous those operations are to begin with.

Just a heads up. Maybe double check with the SME.

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  • ED Team

The missions have been setup this way intentionally, disregarding the speed and winds. 

For the perfect mission setup the mission designer would need to set the ships in the editor for ideal conditions, what the team are saying is conditions are not always perfect but recovery still happens. 

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Copy, then I would still say that most people flying these missions already struggle. It is very difficult to land in consistent conditions in itself. Adding unusual situation on top of it might not be the best solution or help people picking up trends and correct accordingly.

When they are more advanced they can increase the difficulty themselves.


Edited by RED
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Can I ask to have at least fixed missions (Hornet 1989-OCA.miz) where carrier is traveling at recovery time with winds blowing from starbord? Or was this also common WOD direction?

Slower WOD speed still can provide safe recover, but some rules needs to be kept in mind.

From F/A-18's manual:

"With a 30-knot wind over the deck begin the 180° turn to the final approach when approximately abeam the LSO platform."

I have from Vincent Aiello confirmed, that at slower WOD speeds, they were used to estimate WOD strength according to ship wake and sea waves, all that to maintain groove time around 15-17 seconds.

Here is another WOD info source from Real Hornet pilot Lex Talionis, how important WOD is.

 

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I think I have a suitable proposal to solve this problem. I think it would be good for you to modify the manual for Supercarrier or for Hornet and add this rule there with an explanation. It will be a guide for both pilots and how this situation is handled, as well as for mission and campaign creators. Yes, of course, the conditions are not always perfect and yet it lands. But there is a limit below which one cannot go or it is not necessary or appropriate. Of course, even if the ship is sailing against the wind, the wind may have a variable direction, etc. But I am afraid that some missions are already conditions beyond the border and it is necessary to consider their correction. All you have to do is change the speed of the ship, you don't necessarily have to change the wind speed.

However, some of the most problematic missions will need to be adjusted. In my opinion, these are missions:

Persian Gulf FA-18C Case I Carrier Landing.miz

Caucasus FA-18C Carrier Takeoff.miz

C-SUPERCARRIER-HORNET-COLD NIGHT START
same as C-SUPERCARRIER-HORNET-COLD START.miz and C-SUPERCARRIER-HORNET-LAUNCH.miz

Caucasus FA-18C Case III Carrier Final Approach Landing.miz

Caucasus FA-18C Carrier Cold Start.miz

Caucasus FA-18C Case III Carrier Landing.miz

These missions are usually used by people who are learning to land using Case I. Therefore, I do not think it is appropriate to offer them a solution when the ship slows down. Even with Carrier Qualification, pilots are not exposed to such conditions. CNATRAINST 3740.9D page II-5 defines the tolerated limits for Carrier qualification. I enclose a picture here. Here you can see that as an absolute minimum Wind over deck for pilots who perform Carrier qualification is 20 kt.

In conclusion, I would like to thank Gumidek for conducting a mission search and finding out how to resolve the situation. Thanks such a Vincent. I am very grateful to you boys because until today I did not have this information and I often had a very short groove time. Now, thanks to you, we know more. Thank you once again.

 

 


Edited by BIGNEWY
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More to crosswinds (NAVAIR 00-80T-104 NATOPS LSO MANUAL):

Winds starboard of the angle also adversely affect recovery conditions. The burble, aft of the ramp, becomes stronger and moves closer to the ship as the magnitude of recovery crosswind is increased. The airflow disturbance requires corrective pilot technique if the recovery crosswind exceeds 7 knots for all carriers. Even with corrective pilot technique, sinking speeds 3 to 6 feet per second in excess of those experienced during normal (no recovery crosswind) operations can be expected. For these reasons, recovery headwind should be maintained as closely as possible to the optimum velocity and the centerline of the landing area. Shipboard aircraft recovery operations with recovery crosswinds in excess of those specified should be avoided. Refer to Aircraft Recovery Bulletin No. 10-10.

Informative call by LSO to describe wind direction:
“Winds are (slightly) starboard/port/axial.”

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