correct as-is Durability of wings and spars

[Coco22]

I have done a lot of testing with most WW2 planes and no complaints about the performance of different types of weaponry.

I have almost nothing to question on the damage modules which i find work very well when you hit the engine, tank, radiators...

The only problem is suspect is the ability to absorb wing damage, more specifically the strength of the spars and i have seen this on all Warbirds

 

some exemple on DCS 2.7.6.13133 Open Beta

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Nfi1EmQ-c

FW190D9 shoot BF109 and P51D.trk

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu2ib5l86yM

FW190D9 shoot FW190A8 and Spitfire.trk

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPCezm_iVwk

P51 D25 shoot BF109

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7es4KGLV7JU

AAA shoot WW2 plane.trk

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esgcXQpc_sU&list=PLSeGjGCkyvgEIjXWNaQq_ZkoFOfoUnao7&index=4

F18C shoot BF109.trk

why i can't cut this wing but the tail go out so quick ?

 

https://studio.youtube.com/video/mvIbH3UhcgM/edit

F14B shoot FW190A8 and Spitfire.trk

 

i think the durablity of the spars need to be adjusted, for something more realistic.

thank you and fly safe.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Coco22

[grafspee]

Wings are very very tough, 20mm belt contain mostly HE rounds which makes very limited damage to main spars.

This topic was covered by someone already on this forum, hitting wings at trailing edge wont hurt wing's spars much.

I saw 30mm hit from Mk-108 and i must say that it would require couple of hits exactly same place, please note that 30mm round is multiple stronger then 20mm.

Tail section has larger cross section this allow to build it with thinner construction components, There are examples of planes which lose tails w/o being even shot.

Problem is here probably that even if you hit trailing edge multiple times same spot it is still here, so you hit trailing edge over and over, everything what could be destroyed or damaged is already not doing any more damage.

DM is in early stage, i think it is not yet tuned for some extreme testings yet.

More like typical combat shots when plane do evasive maneuvers.

I cant wait till they introduce ammo, fuel or oxygen tanks explosions that would ensure clean wings cut offs

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by grafspee

[Lynchsl62]

I have watched the gun camera movies of the 8th Air Force, and always wondered why the wings disintegrated. My rational is that it appears to be FW-190 with wing mounted canons, and the USAAF was using API rounds. I can only believe that the wing damage is caused by wing ammunition being hit and self detonating to cause such devastation. When you look at the gun camera footage against the much lighter Bf-109, there is not the same dramatic disintegration, even when external fuel tanks are hit they flame rather than disintegrate. 

 

The FW-190 was configured as a bomber destroyer, especially the A-8 with extra armour, whilst in late ‘44 and 45 the Bf-109 were primarily used as fighter in an attempt to protect the FW-190. I don’t think that the wing mounted gun pods were used in this role, as they hindered manoeuvrability and were really intended for attacking bombers when there was no fighter escorts, e.g. through ‘43 and early to mid ‘44 before the P-51 B really destroyed the Luftwaffe over Germany

 

Whilst the picture is of a F4U which was very robust for Naval operations and the damage is caused by Japanese 20mm, I think that this suggests that even a single hit from a 20mm on a wing spar would not sever the spar - however any highs G makeovers and the wing would likely fail due to overload

[Coco22]

hi can i just have a quick reponse from ED please ? 

I know the dcs damage model continues to progress.

but i just want some little adjustment on the spars for something more realistic. 

i ask many pilots who fly both sides and they agree whit that.

especially for the 109 who is stronger than a 190.

i did some test, i can show you if you wish, a 109 with very damage wing can pull 8G and go to is max speed 

i invite you to try that by yourself thank you. 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Coco22

[Yo-Yo]

The main spar is a powerful  load-bearing beam withstanding about 40 tons of load. Vertical walls, especially the central part of them play almost no role, so it is necessary to hit their horisontal walls, and the hits must be quite close to each other. And it must be something like AP projectiles.
So, in RL the probability of ripping of the wing at 1-2g (fully destroyed spar stability) is very low. But either in DCS or in RL the spar can be weakened and can be broken at high g-load.
 

[Coco22]

ok thanks you,

I know all of that but in dcs there are too strong 

did you wacht the video test that i did ? 

compare to that 

check at 01.05.20

and try to do that in dcs, it s impossible 

as i said i wan t cut a wing too easly but now in dcs that impossible or very hard 

please take a P51 or p47 and try to cut the wing of a bf109 

and chek how many G he can pull 

in m y opinion a little adjustment is required 

the only germans plane that i m able to cut the wing is the 190a8 you can t tell me there is no problem.

please i do a lot of try i past few haours on that, because i m a big fan of dcs WW2 please that required some little adjustment i hope you i will try

thank you 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Coco22

[razo+r]

1 hour ago, Coco22 said:

ok thanks you,

I know all of that but in dcs there are too strong 

did you wacht the video test that i did ? 

compare to that 

check at 01.05.20

and try to do that in dcs, it s impossible 

as i said i wan t cut a wing too easly but now in dcs that impossible or very hard 

please take a P51 or p47 and try to cut the wing of a bf109 

and chek how many G he can pull 

in m y opinion a little adjustment is required 

the only germans plane that i m able to cut the wing is the 190a8 you can t tell me there is no problem.

please i do a lot of try i past few haours on that, because i m a big fan of dcs WW2 please that required some little adjustment i hope you i will try

thank you 

 

 

The one in the video looks more like some 190, with ammo in the wings being hit. 

NVM, I looked 15 seconds too early in the video.

Edited November 2, 2021 by razo+r

[Coco22]

22 minutes ago, razo+r said:

The one in the video looks more like some 190, with ammo in the wings being hit. 

i think that a 109  and there is no explosion just a lot a shards when the wing is cut by the 50 cal burst in my opinion  

at 01.03.00 here you can see an explosion that different 

[razo+r]

29 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

i think that a 109  and there is no explosion just a lot a shards when the wing is cut by the 50 cal burst in my opinion  

at 01.03.00 here you can see an explosion that different 

Ah yes, sorry. I looked at the wrong time. The one from 01.05.20 is indeed a 109.

 

The one from 01.03.00 is a 190 though.

Edited November 2, 2021 by razo+r

[Peter5on]

To get the real truth we should ask German ace pilots like Erich Hartmann, he would tell you how many shutdowns been to wing disintegration. To shoot down il-2 he told that you need to pierce its oil cooler.

About wings breaking there is more than one guncam video of Fw-190 wing explosion probably because of ammo so that would means it can be quite common. I also saw gun cam from pacific when one of the Japanese fighters lost a wing from 050cal but that could be also ammo explosion.

What im certain that direct hit from german flack to the wing of B-17, B-25, B-24 was fatal and causes wing breaking off and huge fireball, there is plenty of videos and photos.

 

I think DCS damage model is perfect now, the problem is that in real life pilots were ejecting more quickly with less damage to the plane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yo-Yo]

The plane did not have the spar broken. If you look frame-by-frame you will see that a big shapeless piece of the skin is out and, probably, the aileron.

[Coco22]

15 minutes ago, Yo-Yo said:

The plane did not have the spar broken. If you look frame-by-frame you will see that a big shapeless piece of the skin is out and, probably, the aileron.

is more than the aileron look there is no more wing and the piece we see in think that all the exterior wing look that biger than a aileron 

 

24 minutes ago, Peter5on said:

I think DCS damage model is perfect now, the problem is that in real life pilots were ejecting more quickly with less damage to the plane.

yeh you right 

for me the only problem is spars durability 

[Callsign112]

1 hour ago, Coco22 said:

i think that a 109  and there is no explosion just a lot a shards when the wing is cut by the 50 cal burst in my opinion  

at 01.03.00 here you can see an explosion that different 

I believe your wrong about there not being an explosion. It is not easy to capture without going through the trouble of using a video editor. But there are 30 frames/second, and my player keeps skipping over the bright flash seen at 1:05:20. I can see it as it goes by, but can't seem to land on the frame itself.

But there is more than one bright flash. The two images below are taken from 1:05:19.

I think it is pretty hard to make a judgment about the damage model in DCS based on gun cam footage. In other words, how convinced are you that you can duplicate the exact scenario including the exact number and placement of the rounds hitting the wing. Saying a wing came off in the video doesn't mean much by itself. Do you know if the plane in the video received any damage from other gun bursts, or was this the first time that day this plane was hit? There could be multiple reasons the wing of a plane flying in a world war came off that will not be readily visible in gun cam footage.

I'm not saying the damage model in DCS doesn't need fixing. I'm just saying that it is pretty hard to look at that video, or any others as concrete proof that it does. 

 

 

[grafspee]

Maybe wing mounts were hit and wing went off

As far as i remember wng's main spare is bolted with 2 bolts or something like that.

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by grafspee

[Peter5on]

4 hours ago, Coco22 said:

check at 01.05.20

Wing start to bend and break off before rounds start hitting the plane

at 1:00 huge ammo explosion on left wing.

0:38 you can think that the whole wing came loose but in reality the smoke just covers it.

0:42 Liberator is taking direct hit from flack gun.

I think we've been playing to much that other ww2 sim where wings break off very easily.

I remember playing the one with 1946 in the title years ago and even then i've been doubtful about B-17 wings breaking off so easily from mk108, where there is no evidence of something like that, and more there is one video where bf-110 shoots and shoots B-17 even direct hit to the engine and it still flies like nothing even no fire in the fuel tanks, here it is.

 

Here is betted HD version of it

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Peter5on

[Coco22]

5 hours ago, Callsign112 said:

I believe your wrong about there not being an explosion. It is not easy to capture without going through the trouble of using a video editor. But there are 30 frames/second, and my player keeps skipping over the bright flash seen at 1:05:20. I can see it as it goes by, but can't seem to land on the frame itself.

But there is more than one bright flash. The two images below are taken from 1:05:19.

I think it is pretty hard to make a judgment about the damage model in DCS based on gun cam footage. In other words, how convinced are you that you can duplicate the exact scenario including the exact number and placement of the rounds hitting the wing. Saying a wing came off in the video doesn't mean much by itself. Do you know if the plane in the video received any damage from other gun bursts, or was this the first time that day this plane was hit? There could be multiple reasons the wing of a plane flying in a world war came off that will not be readily visible in gun cam footage.

I'm not saying the damage model in DCS doesn't need fixing. I'm just saying that it is pretty hard to look at that video, or any others as concrete proof that it does. 

yeh i m okay with you, it s hard to make a judgment with gun cam on footage and compare that to DCS,

just in my experience i can tell easly i shoot down 100x BF109 (pvp and AI) and i never cut a wing, i know it s hard but not impossible, i think 1/10 wing cut kill shood be a good stat.

I fly WW2 before the new damage model and i keep flying a lot. 

before to create that topic i mad some try (as you can see on the top) and i ask to others pilots to be sure i m not crazy or bad and they agree with me specialy for the 109 a little adjustment is required. 

i wan t cut wing to easly but some time that should happen and for now that impossible if you try to cut a 109 wing you will understand. 

 

4 hours ago, Peter5on said:

I think we've been playing to much that other ww2 sim where wings break off very easily.

i m okay with that but today as i said i shoot done more 100x BF109 with nerver a wing cut 

 

i think i m not crazy to wan t a little adjustement 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Coco22

[Coco22]

https://stormofwar.info/pilots.php 

I m BJ-Coco i think i got some experience (stats reboot this week) and with 19 confirmed kill and all other plane i let damage there is no wing cut kill 

[NineLine]

On 9/27/2021 at 7:16 AM, Coco22 said:

some exemple on DCS 2.7.6.13133 Open Beta

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Nfi1EmQ-c

FW190D9 shoot BF109 and P51D.trk 324.66 kB · 0 downloads

Ok, I am looking at your tracks now, will provide Debug info for you in hopes you can better understand what is happening.

First I want to offer a theory of why people expect wings to fly off or be cut.

Old games, even DCS was guilty of this for a long time, but not out of not knowing or caring about realism, but rather the ability to render proper damage has for a long time not been possible. The best way in most older games to show a wing becoming useless is to have it fall off. But historically speaking, usually, you needed a catistophic event in one location to really have a wing be cut. Things like ammo explosions in an Anton wing, collisions, events like this.

Is it possible that you could shoot at a wing long enough and cut it off? Sure, but the target and the shooter would need to be flying so steady and landing those shots so precisely that you could carve through the meat of the wing and then cut into the spar, as already stated, the spar being one of the toughest parts of an aircraft, not just for combat damage, but in the fact it has to take high loads.

So anyways...

Dora vs Kurfurst:

The entire log isn't shown, but you can see where many hits did not even connect with the spar, on the wing spar graphic you can see that 2 sections were hit, and not even a quarter of the health was lost, the wing is the very least of this pilots worries. There is simply a lot of stuff inside those wings that rounds have to travel through before you really do much to the spar, and it simply wasn't happening here.

Dora vs Mustang

This time you managed to cluster your shots a little better, the center section was taken down to just below 50% health, but once again, the toughest component on the aircraft is the spar, and the pilot has decided the other damage was more than enough to leave. Had he stayed in, and was able to control the aircraft (in this case you cut some controls) and had he pulled any high loads on the wing, they very well could have broken.

Its working as expected, cutting wings with bullets just wasn't as common as games and hollywood might make you think. We could have wings pop off sooner or with less damage, but we want to break new ground here, and take the realism to the next level, this is it. You are not cutting wings so easy. And I watch all around the industry, I know there are similar complaints elsewhere, most are comping to the realization that the old ways of showing damage just don't cut it with a dynamic and complex damage model like we are creating.

If needed, I can go over more tracks, but this is all stuff I/we have said before. 

The biggest issue still remaining with wings is the comfort levels for some modules when the wing is badly chewed up, and no longer this smooth aerodynamic shape. This is still WIP, but don't expect to see wings flying off in examples like this.

Thanks.

[NineLine]

To added to above, this is a good example of a wing might fail after damage.

 

[Coco22]

40 minutes ago, NineLine said:

To added to above, this is a good example of a wing might fail after damage.

yeh i m okay with you that work very well on FW190A8 i have nothing to say about him.

but on the 109 that not like this i feel is much stronger no ? 

 

40 minutes ago, NineLine said:

To added to above, this is a good example of a wing might fail after damage.

could you do the same video with a 109? please 

because i never see a 109 do that.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Coco22

[Coco22]

38 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Its working as expected, cutting wings with bullets just wasn't as common as games and hollywood might make you think. We could have wings pop off sooner or with less damage, but we want to break new ground here, and take the realism to the next level, this is it. You are not cutting wings so easy. And I watch all around the industry, I know there are similar complaints elsewhere, most are comping to the realization that the old ways of showing damage just don't cut it with a dynamic and complex damage model like we are creating.

If needed, I can go over more tracks, but this is all stuff I/we have said before. 

The biggest issue still remaining with wings is the comfort levels for some modules when the wing is badly chewed up, and no longer this smooth aerodynamic shape. This is still WIP, but don't expect to see wings flying off in examples like this.

Thanks.

ok i understand and i m okay with you, i think you right and i like this way.

in m y opinion a little adusjtment is needed on the on 109 juste a little 

[NineLine]

I did test for others with their tracks, and if you damage the wing enough, then put Gs on it, it breaks as well. I think the 109 is fine as well.

[Coco22]

45 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I think the 109 is fine as well

i never see a 109 losing is wing like the FW190A8. 

please try it and show me i m wrong for that.

a BF109 is more fragile than a FW190A8 no ? 

i dis some try with a friend and he was capable to put 8G that normal? with a big a 50cal burst in this wing 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Coco22

[NineLine]

Define fragile? I have shown you that you are not doing enough damage to the spar.

 

Where are your tracks with your friend?

[Coco22]

50 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Where are your tracks with your friend?

i lost them i will do a new one tomorow with my friend 

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Define fragile

he can tale less bullet