correct as-is Durability of wings and spars

[Magic Zach]

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

Ok, I am looking at your tracks now, will provide Debug info for you in hopes you can better understand what is happening.

First I want to offer a theory of why people expect wings to fly off or be cut.

Old games, even DCS was guilty of this for a long time, but not out of not knowing or caring about realism, but rather the ability to render proper damage has for a long time not been possible. The best way in most older games to show a wing becoming useless is to have it fall off. But historically speaking, usually, you needed a catistophic event in one location to really have a wing be cut. Things like ammo explosions in an Anton wing, collisions, events like this.

Is it possible that you could shoot at a wing long enough and cut it off? Sure, but the target and the shooter would need to be flying so steady and landing those shots so precisely that you could carve through the meat of the wing and then cut into the spar, as already stated, the spar being one of the toughest parts of an aircraft, not just for combat damage, but in the fact it has to take high loads.

So anyways...

Dora vs Kurfurst:

The entire log isn't shown, but you can see where many hits did not even connect with the spar, on the wing spar graphic you can see that 2 sections were hit, and not even a quarter of the health was lost, the wing is the very least of this pilots worries. There is simply a lot of stuff inside those wings that rounds have to travel through before you really do much to the spar, and it simply wasn't happening here.

Dora vs Mustang

This time you managed to cluster your shots a little better, the center section was taken down to just below 50% health, but once again, the toughest component on the aircraft is the spar, and the pilot has decided the other damage was more than enough to leave. Had he stayed in, and was able to control the aircraft (in this case you cut some controls) and had he pulled any high loads on the wing, they very well could have broken.

Its working as expected, cutting wings with bullets just wasn't as common as games and hollywood might make you think. We could have wings pop off sooner or with less damage, but we want to break new ground here, and take the realism to the next level, this is it. You are not cutting wings so easy. And I watch all around the industry, I know there are similar complaints elsewhere, most are comping to the realization that the old ways of showing damage just don't cut it with a dynamic and complex damage model like we are creating.

If needed, I can go over more tracks, but this is all stuff I/we have said before. 

The biggest issue still remaining with wings is the comfort levels for some modules when the wing is badly chewed up, and no longer this smooth aerodynamic shape. This is still WIP, but don't expect to see wings flying off in examples like this.

Thanks.

Man I wish that DM diagnosis tool was available to everyone.  Would help a lot of user analysis and speed up bug-hunting from the playerbase

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Magic Zach said:

Man I wish that DM diagnosis tool was available to everyone.  Would help a lot of user analysis and speed up bug-hunting from the playerbase

Its a debug tool, in its current form its not great for the average user. That said, it would be nice to have a more descriptive briefing. Doesn't seem to be helping here either.

 

3 hours ago, Coco22 said:

he can tale less bullet 

This is a function of combat not the DM, you have to make sure your bullets land where they need to. I haven't seen anything yet to suggest there is an issue.

[Coco22]

server-20211104-185249.trk

P51D shoot FW190A8

server-20211104-184805.trk

P51D shoot BF109

is that normal they can pull so many G ? 

i watch a lot of youtube video on dcs and i never see a 109 loose is wing. 

if you see that show me please 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Coco22

[Coco22]

On 11/3/2021 at 2:37 AM, NineLine said:

This is a function of combat not the DM, you have to make sure your bullets land where they need to. I haven't seen anything yet to suggest there is an issue.

i don t know how many bullets the spars can take but in theory the spars of the FW190 are stronger than the BF109 no ? 

and how many 50 cal a spar can take. exemple BF109 ? 

Could you explane me please 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Coco22

[grafspee]

Main problem is that in RL once bullet hit something and penetrate, leaves hole, here in dcs it does not. You can hit 20-30 30mm rounds in trailing edged of the wing and it won't bite through the wing, when in RL it would after couple hits.

Same wit 50cal no matter how many rounds will hit they all will stop before reaching main spare

I'm not behind idea about "i want to cut his wing tip or half wing then i aim there" this is just stupid, but wings should came off after hard pounding  Especially that wings can brake off even w/o any damage, i tested it in K-4 you can snap your wings if you pull hard

Edited November 5, 2021 by grafspee

[iFoxRomeo]

On 11/2/2021 at 1:08 PM, Coco22 said:

is more than the aileron look there is no more wing and the piece we see in think that all the exterior wing look that biger than a aileron 

 

This 109 lost someting. Perhaps 1/3 of its left wing or skin. Hard to tell what it really is. The rest of the wing is covered by heavy smoke/fuel vapor. It isn't the complete wing that got torn off.

 

This is to show the smoke/vapor. And the flash before the separation of the wingparts appear to be bigger than the usual bullet strike  At 0:07 you can see the flash illuminates the smoke

 

 

[grafspee]

I can add that bf109 has oxygen tanks in wings. No fuel or oil in wings, vapor must be coolant then

Edited November 5, 2021 by grafspee

[NineLine]

18 hours ago, Coco22 said:

but in theory

What theory?

[Yo-Yo]

7 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

This 109 lost someting. Perhaps 1/3 of its left wing or skin. Hard to tell what it really is. The rest of the wing is covered by heavy smoke/fuel vapor. It isn't the complete wing that got torn off.

 

This is to show the smoke/vapor. And the flash before the separation of the wingparts appear to be bigger than the usual bullet strike  At 0:07 you can see the flash illuminates the smoke

 

 

If you take a look at the wing of 109 you can see that the wingtip has no tough spar but a light systems of ribs. HE blast ripped of the skin and probably took the wingtip with it.

[NineLine]

On 11/4/2021 at 11:03 AM, Coco22 said:

server-20211104-185249.trk 1.34 MB · 1 download

P51D shoot FW190A8

In this one, you tore up the outer right wing quite a bit, and you could see as you or your friend tried to pull any Gs, you got some serious wing drop from that side, and in fact, from my view of the track, the 190 ended up in the ground because control with such large loads were not possible to control.

 

On 11/4/2021 at 11:03 AM, Coco22 said:

server-20211104-184805.trk 812.5 kB · 1 download

P51D shoot BF109

is that normal they can pull so many G ? 

With the 109, you hit it more than half the amount of times you did the 190, and the spar was much healthier than the 190, still enough damage was done to the wing and much more G's were pulled with the 109 that you ended up crashing once again trying to put too much load on such damage.

[NineLine]

An example when damage is focused on the right spot of the wing. 

 

[Coco22]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

With the 109, you hit it more than half the amount of times you did the 190, and the spar was much healthier than the 190, still enough damage was done to the wing and much more G's were pulled with the 109 that you ended up crashing once again trying to put too much load on such damage.

dude i never seen a gun footage were a plane take a burst like that a still with is wing.

Show me a gun footage were a 109 can take that 

[NineLine]

11 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

dude i never seen a gun footage were a plane take a burst like that a still with is wing.

Show me a gun footage were a 109 can take that 

No you show me all these wings falling off, then we will talk. You want Hollywood, its just not the case. We have done our research on this, if you feel there is something wrong you need to show a number of examples of the wings falling off with such little damage, and ALL your tracks are showing very low or poor hits on the 109. 

As an example, the only wing loss shown in this video was a catastrophic even, most likely ammo explosion (which isn't currently working on our 190)

 

[Coco22]

9 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

explain how this 109 lose is wing

 

as i say i shoot down more than 100 BF109 never with a wing cut is that a good stat for you that sim realistic ? 

 

[NineLine]

2 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

explain how this 109 lose is wing

 

as i say i shoot down more than 100 BF109 never with a wing cut is that a good stat for you that sim realistic ? 

 

It was explained above, you cant see the entire wing, and in fact you only see the wing tip come back, its doubtful the whole wing came off. If you knock the tip off our 109 it will do the same thing, and want to start rolling.

Next? If it was so common, you will find hundreds of them online. I will wait.

[Coco22]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

An example when damage is focused on the right spot of the wing. 

on your video i don t see how many shot the wing take 

 

5 minutes ago, NineLine said:

It was explained above, you cant see the entire wing, and in fact you only see the wing tip come back, its doubtful the whole wing came off. If you knock the tip off our 109 it will do the same thing, and want to start rolling.

in dcs it s impossible to do that with a quick burst like that.

in the track in send you i put really more bullets.

6 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Next? If it was so common, you will find hundreds of them online. I will wait.

there is already on exemple and i will find other. 

a former pilot p51 tell is story and he tell he cut the wing of a 109 

 

[NineLine]

31 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

on your video i don t see how many shot the wing take 

You can see in the log how many hits the spar took. 4

31 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

in dcs it s impossible to do that with a quick burst like that.

in the track in send you i put really more bullets.

No, it is not impossible. But yes, it is tough to get shoots on a specific spot like this, as it would be in real life, and the reason you didnt see wings cut off.

31 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

a former pilot p51 tell is story and he tell he cut the wing of a 109 

Yes, and Chuck Yeager used to say his eye sight was so good he could see 109s over Berlin from the channel. 

Lots of encounter reports here for you to read.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

You should average out how many lost wings vs how many didnt make sure you add a link to the report or video, would love to see them. (collisions don't count)

[Coco22]

13 hours ago, NineLine said:

You can see in the log how many hits the spar took. 4

i don't see you shoot the BF109, could show me how you do that ? 

 

[Coco22]

14 hours ago, NineLine said:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

It s  very interesting effectively i read some report and d'ont find a destroyed 109 or 190 with a wing cut. if you know one report with a wing cut could you can show it to me please ? 

and i know there is not a lot of planes shoot down because  they loose their wings but in dcs that just never happen to me and as i said i watch a lot of  dcs youtube contents and i really dont see that more and onestly i don t think that normal and in dcs the planes take really more bullets than in real life because the pilot don't  eject like in real life, it s hard to define the durabitily of a wing like that because in real life the pilot don t aim for the wing specially and i never see a gun cam where a 109 take more than a burst of  4 sec of  50 cal only on is wing

14 hours ago, NineLine said:

Yes, and Chuck Yeager used to say his eye sight was so good he could see 109s over Berlin from the channel. 

xd i just say an former p51 pilot shoot a 109 and cut the wing that in a documantary, and that juste one this victory not all i think we can trust him on this point here,

i don t see why he will lie for that and he give a lot of details. 

as is said i shoot more than 100 bf109 with never a wing failures. 

and as i said it s hard to compare with real life because i put really more bullets in dcs than in real life 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Coco22

[Magic Zach]

On 11/5/2021 at 1:02 PM, Yo-Yo said:

If you take a look at the wing of 109 you can see that the wingtip has no tough spar but a light systems of ribs. HE blast ripped of the skin and probably took the wingtip with it.

I can't replicate this severed wingtip phenomenon on the 109, with another 109's own 30mm

[NineLine]

10 hours ago, Coco22 said:

It s  very interesting effectively i read some report and d'ont find a destroyed 109 or 190 with a wing cut. if you know one report with a wing cut could you can show it to me please ? 

and i know there is not a lot of planes shoot down because  they loose their wings but in dcs that just never happen to me and as i said i watch a lot of  dcs youtube contents and i really dont see that more and onestly i don t think that normal and in dcs the planes take really more bullets than in real life because the pilot don't  eject like in real life, it s hard to define the durabitily of a wing like that because in real life the pilot don t aim for the wing specially and i never see a gun cam where a 109 take more than a burst of  4 sec of  50 cal only on is wing

xd i just say an former p51 pilot shoot a 109 and cut the wing that in a documantary, and that juste one this victory not all i think we can trust him on this point here,

i don t see why he will lie for that and he give a lot of details. 

as is said i shoot more than 100 bf109 with never a wing failures. 

and as i said it s hard to compare with real life because i put really more bullets in dcs than in real life 

 

I think all this answers all your own concerns.

[Coco22]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

I think all this answers all your own concerns.

xd thx for this 

you don t show me how you shoot the 109 in your video

[NineLine]

8 hours ago, Coco22 said:

you don t show me how you shoot the 109 in your video

That wasnt the point of the video, the point of the video is how well you place your shots is how well your shots do. This would be a difficult shot even with someone letting you shoot, again, why you dont see hardly any reports of wings flying off from gun damage.

[Coco22]

9 hours ago, NineLine said:

That wasnt the point of the video, the point of the video is how well you place your shots is how well your shots do. This would be a difficult shot even with someone letting you shoot, again, why you dont see hardly any reports of wings flying off from gun damage.

that is exactly the point of the video i want to see you shoot a 109 and damage is wing like in your video, that the problem the bullets don t do the damage they sould do on the spars, something stop them or i don t no, 

[NineLine]

4 hours ago, Coco22 said:

that is exactly the point of the video i want to see you shoot a 109 and damage is wing like in your video, that the problem the bullets don t do the damage they sould do on the spars, something stop them or i don t no, 

No you are missing the point, I showed that in your videos, which is the evidence you gave that there was an issue, the issue turned out to be the lack of quality hits on the Spars. That was the point. I showed that the Spar could be damaged, and should that it could be damaged with a few shots if those shots were good. That is all I have for you.

You have not shown any evidence that wings should be flying off left and right...

Look at the wing.

 

Look at how much is going on in there, how many points need to be damaged for the wing to come off. It make 100% sense that a collision is more likely to remove a wing. Even the video shared, it was inconclusive, very likely it was a large chunk of skin coming off the aircraft rather than a chunk of the entire wing. Its a long running issue that games used wing lose as a band aid to low fidelity damage modelling, we are guilty as well. The time has come to rip off the band aid, and its probably gonna hurt at first.