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ARK-5 Near switches


mastershotgun

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If you take the time to read the linked thread, you'll see ED changed how the ARK-9  ARK-5 works to be closer to reality.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.


Edited by Flappie
ARK-5, not 9
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I meant ARK-5, sorry.

 

Ramsay and Tarres explained the 3 radio presets in the mission editor implementation was wrong, because the real MiG-15bis didn't have these. I quote Ramsay:

Quote

The module hasn't been broken, the change in ARC-5 behaviour was deliberate to make operation of the ARC-5 radio set more accurate.

 

 

Then Tarres gave a good explanation of how the ARK-5 Near switches must be used:

 

Then Ramsay gave another, more detailed, example:

 

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The only thing the near far switch does is flip the range knob on tuning panel remotely. The default MiG-19 implementation is simplified, but even there there's a way to turn on a more realistic implementation in options. ED didn't do that, since the Mission Editor gives you tools to place your own NDBs. If you want to "roll back" an airfield to 50s to make it MiG-15 compatible, just add a custom beacon on top of the downwind inner beacon with same code and frequency that matches outer frequency on another scale. Otherwise just set it up so it gets as close to the inner freq as possible and tune manually after switch - i should be close enough to do that during approach.


Edited by m4ti140
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17 hours ago, m4ti140 said:

The only thing the near far switch does is flip the range knob on tuning panel remotely. The default MiG-19 implementation is simplified, but even there there's a way to turn on a more realistic implementation in options. ED didn't do that, since the Mission Editor gives you tools to place your own NDBs. If you want to "roll back" an airfield to 50s to make it MiG-15 compatible, just add a custom beacon on top of the downwind inner beacon with same code and frequency that matches outer frequency on another scale. Otherwise just set it up so it gets as close to the inner freq as possible and tune manually after switch - i should be close enough to do that during approach.

 

I was not talking about near/far switch... I was talking about 3 separate ndb switches...

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5 hours ago, mastershotgun said:

I was not talking about near/far switch... I was talking about 3 separate ndb switches...

 

As the threads linked by Flappie explain.

 

The three switches select the frequency range on the ARK-5 receiver which will be used when switching from far to near.

150 - 310

310 - 640

640 - 1030

Far beacon being within the 640 - 1030 kHz range, tune this in the ARK- receiver. The corresponding inner beacon is within 310 - 640 kHz range, you need to switch the 310 - 640 kHz (middle switch to on).

Overflying the outer beacon, you can now switch far/near switch to near, and the ARK-5 "automatically" receives the inner beacon (without turning the crank), because in the near position, the range selection is used from the switches and not from the frequency range dial on the receiver unit.

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Please read the post above, @Ramsay put it really nice together with pictures.

Only some OM/IM combinations work. Frequency range set and than tune with the hand crank on the ARK-5 receiver on the right side of the cockpit. On the kneeboard there's also a hint for the frequency as the scale is hard to read sometimes due to parallax error and what not.

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Sorry guys, but I still not get it... How do you tune it than? You are not going to mess with the ARK-5 tuning handle, because if you do it will mess up your far beacon settings. Which is exactly you do not want. The whole reason why you have the switch like that, on the so easy reach position as it is, is to quickly switch back and forward getween near and far beacons to get your runway angle approach... This is what give MiG-15 the "all weather" label... If you mess with the handle, you loose that capability...

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3 hours ago, mastershotgun said:

Sorry guys, but I still not get it... How do you tune it than? You are not going to mess with the ARK-5 tuning handle, because if you do it will mess up your far beacon settings. Which is exactly you do not want. The whole reason why you have the switch like that, on the so easy reach position as it is, is to quickly switch back and forward getween near and far beacons to get your runway angle approach... This is what give MiG-15 the "all weather" label... If you mess with the handle, you loose that capability...

 

The near and far beacons frequencies are supposed to be coupled. Same position of the tuning handle, only different frequency ranges. The one for far that you set on the rotary 3-position dial on the right (for the far beacon), the other for the near beacon is set by the switches.  But by design, the tuning handle should not move. Only the ranges.

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4 hours ago, mastershotgun said:

Sorry guys, but I still not get it... How do you tune it than? You are not going to mess with the ARK-5 tuning handle, because if you do it will mess up your far beacon settings. Which is exactly you do not want. The whole reason why you have the switch like that, on the so easy reach position as it is, is to quickly switch back and forward getween near and far beacons to get your runway angle approach... This is what give MiG-15 the "all weather" label... If you mess with the handle, you loose that capability...

You DON'T tune it. The near-far switch literally just flips the band selection knob on the tuning panel remotely to a different position depending on which of the 3 switches you flipped. Frequency isn't stored anywhere. There are no separate far and near settings. There's just a potentiometer that stays where you put it. It's an old analog radio with a servo installed on the 3 position range knob to allow you to flip it remotely. You can achieve the same thing those 3 switches + near/far switch do by just clicking on that knob yourself. This is why you need a specific relationship between the beacons on the ground - they need to have such frequencies that they correspond to the same position of the tuning crank in a different frequency range out of the 3 available. If they're not, then you need to move the crank after switching.


Edited by m4ti140
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It's amazing how ingenuous some of those early radionavigation systems were. And how they managed to work around limitations in technology or even (in this case) User Interface. 😄 

 

I believe the Mig-19 has two separate "memories" for the frequencies and thus does not require the outer/inner NDBs to be coupled. I wonder if the Mig-17 has made the jump to that or if it still has the early Mig-15 system that we discuss here. 🤔

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17 minutes ago, BuzzLine said:

It's amazing how ingenuous some of those early radionavigation systems were. And how they managed to work around limitations in technology or even (in this case) User Interface. 😄 

 

Well, that was exactly what I was thinking... Because we also need to deal with different time eras and different countries... Not all countries follow the same logic/offsets for the beacons... So, to preset frequencies is maybe not so realistic as we would like, but it is much more usefull gamewise as what we have... If it make sense...

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3 minutes ago, mastershotgun said:

 

Well, that was exactly what I was thinking... Because we also need to deal with different time eras and different countries... Not all countries follow the same logic/offsets for the beacons... So, to preset frequencies is maybe not so realistic as we would like, but it is much more usefull gamewise as what we have... If it make sense...

 

I understand your viewpoint. If ED aims for maximum historical accuracy, they should also provide accuracy beyond the plane itself as, as we see here, the environment plays (played ?) a part in the whole system. 

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8 hours ago, BuzzLine said:

It's amazing how ingenuous some of those early radionavigation systems were. And how they managed to work around limitations in technology or even (in this case) User Interface. 😄 

 

I believe the Mig-19 has two separate "memories" for the frequencies and thus does not require the outer/inner NDBs to be coupled. I wonder if the Mig-17 has made the jump to that or if it still has the early Mig-15 system that we discuss here. 🤔

It (the MiG-19) does not, it has the exact same system as MiG-15. The default implementation is a fantasy one to make the aircraft easier to use on modern maps, there's an option in special options to enable realistic implementation though it's not clearly labelled (it says "far sets near frequency" or sth like that).

7 hours ago, BuzzLine said:

 

I understand your viewpoint. If ED aims for maximum historical accuracy, they should also provide accuracy beyond the plane itself as, as we see here, the environment plays (played ?) a part in the whole system. 

NDB beacons can be placed in mission editor using triggers. There's no need to add historical NDBs to maps unless they're reworking the maps completely to reflect their state in the 50s.


Edited by m4ti140
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8 hours ago, mastershotgun said:

 

Well, that was exactly what I was thinking... Because we also need to deal with different time eras and different countries... Not all countries follow the same logic/offsets for the beacons... So, to preset frequencies is maybe not so realistic as we would like, but it is much more usefull gamewise as what we have... If it make sense...

Same as above. Just add a trigger zone on top of the inner beacon and add a radio transmission trigger to it with a correct frequency. You will need to generate morse code audio yourself though, I suggest this site: https://morsecode.world/international/translator.html then add empty space in audio editor of choice so it loops at a realistic frequency, or play around with settings to produce the space.


Edited by m4ti140
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