Lock On: Flaming Cliffs Distribution Option Polling

[Greenies]

For me, the solution concerning Visa payment and a download will suffice for me, but I assume that the money transaction will take place over a secure connection. Can you confirm this Matt?

 

I trust you guys, but I don't want to invite other people I don't know to snatch my VISA card number.

[Slamelov]

I don't care if they use Visa or Paypal download, but I suppose that Visa is more "universal" because you don't have to register in Paypal.

 

But I'd really like a CD version with a BIG printed manual, I would pay for it like a complete new game, or more. It's the same that Sonalist will do with Dangerous Waters, a game that will be distributed online. May be you should consider this option.

 

Regards.

 

Doing a big printed manual as standard, and expecting the same price for it, just won't happen any more.

 

If there is a future to big printed manuals, it lies with enthusiasts like Nic Cole printing them and selling them separately. I'm sure there are members of the community who would be happy to write additional material not available in the basic game documentation - Shepski did some for the Digital Aspirin.

 

http://www.lomac-manual.com

 

 

If you want big manuals again, as a community we have to bite the bullet and pay what they're worth . . . . . and not everyone will.

 

Some enthusiasts will, and that's great . . . . but we can't ask the developers, publishers, and gaming shops to include them as standard any more - it's just not economical.

 

 

v1.1 will apparently include much more comprehensive documentation than did the previous versions of Lomac . . . . . and I hope that ED and Nic Cole can come to some kind of arrangement for future products :)

 

YEs, that's what I meant. Big manual and pay a bit more. If Sonalist do it (500 pages), I think it's possible for everyone. http://www.battlefront.com/products/dw/index.html

I'd pay for 1.1 with manual 50 or 60€ (may be more), I'm sure it worths

[AnzacPT]

i hope ED and Nic Cole make another version of the manual should it become necessary...

 

i bought the first one and would gladly buy the second...

 

also... maybe Nic can tell us how many manuals DID he sell?

 

i would sure consider that as an indicator for how many people would buy FC...

 

:)

[E-jet]

Hi all,

 

Focusing on what Matt asked...

 

1) I am all for download, happy to use Paypal or Visa. Sorry to all you guys in unsupported countries, do what I did and move to the UK! Obviously not a serious suggestion, my sympathies for your hassles/grievances.

 

2) Will back up the download onto my own CD, where it will live in my original LOMAC case in my sim library.

 

3) As far as returning the product if anything is lacking/not working, COME ON GUYS!!! look how many people have voted. We are a small community. I am willing to spend $35 (+/-) to support ED, cos they are devoted and we should be too or it ai'nt going to fly long term. Heck we all probably spend more in a night out on the town, and whats better value?

 

4) Whats wrong with Steam? It seems to be a very good solution for protecting the publishers rights, and that is a critical point long term

 

Best regards,

E-jet

 

No sig as they suck on 56K

[Bug11]

I can't and won't use PayPal, so anything other than that. I'd like a further degree of information on PRODCUT SUPPORT and the ability to receive a FULL REFUND if the game still dosn't work.

 

That's a good point. If i buy it, and am not happy with it, can i get a refund?

 

If the answer is in the thread already i apologize, just posting as i read my way through.

[Bug11]

I can't and won't use PayPal, so anything other than that. I'd like a further degree of information on PRODCUT SUPPORT and the ability to receive a FULL REFUND if the game still dosn't work.

 

:roll: How will you send back your download? What game exactly do you get a refund on if it doesnt work on your computer? Sigh..... :cry:

 

Your money.

 

HOW to do it is not the consumer's responsibility.

[GGTharos]

The manufacturer sells it to you 'as is', final sale ... if it doesn't work on your machine, upgrade ... however if LOMAC works on your machine, then FC should by all means work, and if there's a problem, the devs will undoubtedly attempt to address the problem promptly.

 

HOWEVER. If your computer is simply inadequate, why are you getting it in the first place?

 

These are the possibilities that I see, personally.

[Bug11]

:roll: How will you send back your download? What game exactly do you get a refund on if it doesnt work on your computer? Sigh..... :cry:

 

Which is why I want further information, don't try to be clever. If it isn't functional on a system where a claim has been made it is, the developers should respect that a refund is necessary. Obviously you can't send back your download. A refund is means reimbursement, not an exchange.

 

Think you're misunderstand what I'm saying. Game developers, EA games/Valve/ED/ect ect do not give refunds on games....period.You may return a defective product for the same product but no refunds on an open product in which this case a dload is opened goods. Weather or not it runs on your rig is not part of the eula. Game Devs cant controll what kind of crap you put on your pc or if you built your pc who is to say its the game and not your hardware at fault? If you have ever returned any game and got your money back then I'm sure the Best Buy or Walmart or where ever you got the game ended up biting the $30.00-$50.00. Or, the employee of named store got it taken out of his next paycheck for giving your money back. This is just how the gamming business works. Been this way ever since I can remember.

 

If we could all take back games weather they work or not. Developers would make no money with todays technology of CD/DVD burners.

 

irrelevant.

 

changing the method of sale does not entitle any party to circumvent law.

 

if the developer is selling the product, they also become the retailer, and will be covered by any applicable laws.

[GGTharos]

Um, whose laws?

 

They're not bound by US or UK or whatever laws in selling you this.

 

They're also selling you a license to use the product and they are not required to refund you this license - that they provide the product ofr you to use also is just the devil in the details, but you are buying a LICENSE TO USE FC, not FC itself. That's it.

 

They're not circumventing anything.

[AnzacPT]

:roll: How will you send back your download? What game exactly do you get a refund on if it doesnt work on your computer? Sigh..... :cry:

 

Which is why I want further information, don't try to be clever. If it isn't functional on a system where a claim has been made it is, the developers should respect that a refund is necessary. Obviously you can't send back your download. A refund is means reimbursement, not an exchange.

 

Think you're misunderstand what I'm saying. Game developers, EA games/Valve/ED/ect ect do not give refunds on games....period.You may return a defective product for the same product but no refunds on an open product in which this case a dload is opened goods. Weather or not it runs on your rig is not part of the eula. Game Devs cant controll what kind of crap you put on your pc or if you built your pc who is to say its the game and not your hardware at fault? If you have ever returned any game and got your money back then I'm sure the Best Buy or Walmart or where ever you got the game ended up biting the $30.00-$50.00. Or, the employee of named store got it taken out of his next paycheck for giving your money back. This is just how the gamming business works. Been this way ever since I can remember.

 

If we could all take back games weather they work or not. Developers would make no money with todays technology of CD/DVD burners.

 

irrelevant.

 

changing the method of sale does not entitle any party to circumvent law.

 

if the developer is selling the product, they also become the retailer, and will be covered by any applicable laws.

 

is all of this really relevant?

 

i mean... i´m all for consumer rights... but sometimes it seems that there is a death wish in this community...

 

when there are no flight sim´s for us to play with... be happy because you still have your consumer rights intact...

 

were we talking about a FPS... i would understand all of this... but we are not... we are talking about one of last flight sim developers...

 

let´s get serious... if you don´t want to get FC, don´t. if you want to... then by all means get it...

 

if i can support ED by paying them more, i will... i paid 40$US to Ian (IJ) on CougarWorld for the replacement buttons for my Cougar... he asked for a lot less, but people like him and ED that work for our amusement deserve to be compensated...

[Bug11]

The manufacturer sells it to you 'as is', final sale ... if it doesn't work on your machine, upgrade ... however if LOMAC works on your machine, then FC should by all means work, and if there's a problem, the devs will undoubtedly attempt to address the problem promptly.

 

HOWEVER. If your computer is simply inadequate, why are you getting it in the first place?

 

These are the possibilities that I see, personally.

 

OK.

 

Choices are:

a) buy it and hope it works, if not you wasted your money.

b) not buy it.

 

given the condition lomac was released in, and is still in, doesn't it seem that if given no opportunity to obtain a refund, many people aren't going to risk purchasing in the first place and are going to go and do 'illegal' things first - with whatever percentage of those people who may have bought it and kept it not bothering since they already have it?

 

just human nature.

[GGTharos]

No, actually FC is reported much more stable, and 1.02 already works on pretty much any adequate computer. Can you run 1.02? Does it run relatively fine? FC will likely do better for stability.

 

While I understand your paranoia in some sense, I think you should look at how much ED is trying to support this produce before fudding like this.

[Bug11]

:roll: How will you send back your download? What game exactly do you get a refund on if it doesnt work on your computer? Sigh..... :cry:

 

Which is why I want further information, don't try to be clever. If it isn't functional on a system where a claim has been made it is, the developers should respect that a refund is necessary. Obviously you can't send back your download. A refund is means reimbursement, not an exchange.

 

Think you're misunderstand what I'm saying. Game developers, EA games/Valve/ED/ect ect do not give refunds on games....period.You may return a defective product for the same product but no refunds on an open product in which this case a dload is opened goods. Weather or not it runs on your rig is not part of the eula. Game Devs cant controll what kind of crap you put on your pc or if you built your pc who is to say its the game and not your hardware at fault? If you have ever returned any game and got your money back then I'm sure the Best Buy or Walmart or where ever you got the game ended up biting the $30.00-$50.00. Or, the employee of named store got it taken out of his next paycheck for giving your money back. This is just how the gamming business works. Been this way ever since I can remember.

 

If we could all take back games weather they work or not. Developers would make no money with todays technology of CD/DVD burners.

 

irrelevant.

 

changing the method of sale does not entitle any party to circumvent law.

 

if the developer is selling the product, they also become the retailer, and will be covered by any applicable laws.

 

is all of this really relevant?

 

i mean... i´m all for consumer rights... but sometimes it seems that there is a death wish in this community...

 

when there are no flight sim´s for us to play with... be happy because you still have your consumer rights intact...

 

were we talking about a FPS... i would understand all of this... but we are not... we are talking about one of last flight sim developers...

 

let´s get serious... if you don´t want to get FC, don´t. if you want to... then by all means get it...

 

there will always be flightsims to play with, regardless of hyperbole.

 

consumer rights are not something to be waived to protect a developer.

[Bug11]

No, actually FC is reported much more stable, and 1.02 already works on pretty much any adequate computer. Can you run 1.02? Does it run relatively fine? FC will likely do better for stability.

 

While I understand your paranoia in some sense, I think you should look at how much ED is trying to support this produce before fudding like this.

 

not paranoia at all :)

 

basic consumer rights.

 

I have faith that ED are going to release something good, BUT.. it's not a fool's faith. I can see in this thread others who share the same concern.

 

If there will be a way to get a refund then there's nothing to lose.

 

Not to mention the dubious legality of selling something without possiblity of refund.

[britgliderpilot]

not paranoia at all :)

 

basic consumer rights.

 

I have faith that ED are going to release something good, BUT.. it's not a fool's faith. I can see in this thread others who share the same concern.

 

If there will be a way to get a refund then there's nothing to lose.

 

Not to mention the dubious legality of selling something without possiblity of refund.

 

Dubious legality?

 

Funny thing, that . . . . I found this on with Google:

 

Right to return goods purchased over the Internet

 

Each state has consumer protections regarding returns. Sellers are generally not required to accept returns or offer refunds for non-defective goods, but they may be obliged to clearly state the absence of a refund, exchange, or credit policy. Without a statement, sellers are expected to offer refunds for unused, undamaged, nonperishable goods.

 

 

In any case, what you are actually purchasing is a license to run Lomac. With CD-based products you could prove at some level that you wouldn't attempt to use the software again - with a download, you can't. Piracy wise, this puts ED in a very difficult position . . . . . I think they'd be foolish to offer refunds.

[wolf8218]

Primary motivation.... no need to use an extra disc, easily recognizable, less chance of data corruption. but i dont know why it would take that much longer, except maybe a week or two to make 3-4 hundred copies and another week to send them all out.

[AnzacPT]

in reply to Shark that on the Ubi forum suggested that ED join with Ubi to distribute FC, i thought it was relevant to post this here:

 

"if it was distributed by Ubi, i might NOT buy FC...

 

i don´t understand what people here are thinking...

 

there are NO software returns in Portugal after you open the plastic wrapping...

 

that means you could copy the game and get a refund...

 

i have bought several games that were PURE C*R*A*P and had to bite the bullet...

 

one fine example... "Line of Sight: Vietnam" by Atari... incredible waste of money!!! to bad...

 

oh.. and it costed as much as FC... get serious..

 

also i tend to buy what WERE great games of yesterday only to find that they do not work in newer systems and/or operating systems...

 

thought these come quite cheap (around 5$), i´ve bought several were this has happened... and several little jewels that i can play too...

 

why would ED send an easily copiable CD or download to refund later?

 

5 minutes later it would be on every major server...

 

it can still happen if one that buys makes that... but i truly hope it doesn´t..."

[AnzacPT]

No, actually FC is reported much more stable, and 1.02 already works on pretty much any adequate computer. Can you run 1.02? Does it run relatively fine? FC will likely do better for stability.

 

While I understand your paranoia in some sense, I think you should look at how much ED is trying to support this produce before fudding like this.

 

not paranoia at all :)

 

basic consumer rights.

 

I have faith that ED are going to release something good, BUT.. it's not a fool's faith. I can see in this thread others who share the same concern.

 

If there will be a way to get a refund then there's nothing to lose.

 

Not to mention the dubious legality of selling something without possiblity of refund.

 

basic consumer rights in WHAT country?

 

as i have stated, in Portugal there are no refunds after you open the plastic wrapping of the game...

[AnzacPT]

i thought i should make another point...

 

here is what it says in EVERY piece of Microsoft software:

 

"Important:

You must accept the ENCLOSED License Agreement before you can use this product. If you do not accept the terms of the License Agreement, you should promply return the product for a refund."

 

and before anyone starts yelling that Microsoft refunds people, they mean BEFORE you open the product or even READ the enclosed License Agreement!

 

which is equivalent of returning an UNOPENED software to the store. no problem there.

 

but you receive a download software, it´s another story... it´s like saying that you agree the License Agreement BEFORE you make the download...

 

i find it much worse having to activate Microsoft products and if you are someone, like me, that keeps formatting your system, then you also keep phoning Microsoft to activate your product and saying every time that "yes, i have formated my system AGAIN... can you please give me my activation key?"

 

and for someone who said that there will always be flight sims, that it true...

 

there will ALWAYS be flight sims, but that doesn´t mean that there will not be times that there will be no flight sims until someone makes one...

 

and i think most of us should consider that the sim market IS changing...

 

what alternatives do we HAVE, right now?

 

NONE.

 

Falcon 4 is legally impeded to go any further and really is long in the tooth...

 

Fighter Ops is basically stopped and will take years to come out if and when they start working on it again...

 

Thunder Works, "Jet Thunder" is under development, but even they say that it will take time to be ready, and also state that normal distribution channels will not be used, just like ED with FC...

 

it also doesn´t have the F-16, F-18, etc... so a lot of people will keep waiting...

 

and we also have X-plane that is also developed like ED are doing... sold on a web page and costs 50$...

 

and Micro-Flight using the same methods...

 

Think...

[bflagg]

not to switch subject...

fighter ops stopped?

[Dmut]

not to switch subject...

fighter ops stopped?

why do you think so? their site is up, and forum is active.

AFAIK, they are working on something to show on public, like beta-demo.

[suntrace1]

Please, make some alternative ways of payment, i don't have a credit card, but am willing to pay directly to your bank account or other ways (still have a spare sister to marry :).

 

And a DL would be sufficient, if there is no plastic box with manual.

[Sardukar]

Consumer rights really depends on what country your from, obviously. In Australia, retailers have to accept a refund of the product if it does not meet your requirements even if the product is in perfect working order (it doesnt work on ur pc for some reason, its not what u needed it for etc).

 

However, international laws are probably a bit different.

[Caretaker]

Uhm pardon me, but since when could you get a refund on software products because you're not happy with them? I know some retailers in the US used to trade your games in in that case, but apparently this isn't possible too often anymore - the usual case is, if you don't have a broken CD, but are just unhappy with the software, you're stuck with it. Always has been the normal way, and I don't see how it should be different here now.

 

Of course there is a certain risk involved like with any kind of software. You have to decide whether it's worth taking this risk or not.

[DarkStar]

...

 

Fighter Ops is basically stopped and will take years to come out if and when they start working on it again...

 

let me take a second to laugh! It is alive and well. Like Dmut said their new website will be up any time soon. I know of a bunch of great people working on this project right now, so it is far from stopped... dunno where you got that idea...

 

Back on topic, I think flight sim's has a bright future, starting with FC! :D