Dynamic Plane Numbers?

[Steve Gee]

Was just curious if you'd ever come up with a solution for dynamic modex plane numbers for the Tomcat?

[LanceCriminal86]

Apparently adding MODEX to an existing model is fairly "destructive" in how faces and such have to be cut out, which in turn may impact the UVW/Texture maps and other things. It doesn't sound like it's a soon thing or even surefire that it can get done without massively chopping the model up to do it.

[Hawks5]

Which is a shame as I find it kills immersion to have multiple aircraft from the same squadron in a mission all carrying the same modex number.

[Callsign JoNay]

Yeah it sucks. Would love to see custom numbers, canopy names, and helmet callsigns customizable through the refuel and rearm page some day so we can just use stock liveries that everyone already has.

[Airhunter]

14 hours ago, Hawks5 said:

Which is a shame as I find it kills immersion to have multiple aircraft from the same squadron in a mission all carrying the same modex number.

 

There is at least one batch of 3 modex liveries for the 14B (VF-32) and it's probably best to have say a VF-11 or 31 squadron for the A done the same way by HB. Way more realistic given the pilot names below the canopy, BUNO numbers etc. Not a huge fan of dynamic modex on US jets, personally.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Airhunter

[Swordsman422]

Yep, some people's immersion gets broken over different things. Modex numbers are a big deal, but  I don't particularly care about mission-specified canopy names. People want the "realism" of specifying the jet's side number but also want to be able to put their own name below the canopy in a mission as if a particular pilot always flew the jet with his name on it as if this was the USAF. Frankly, I'd rather just have the dynamic modex numbers, not sweat the canopy names, and shrug off the BuNos. Unless the jet is a CAG/CO bird, the BuNo text is almost the same color as the rest of the plane.

 

The trick with modex numbers on the F-14 is that "standard"... wasn't much. Each squadron had their own minor differences in typeface, size, and exact location across the 35 years the F-14 flew, to the point where even if Heatblur were to cover the most common placements, it still wouldn't account for half the options. Some people don't care about that and will be happy with just one placement so long as they get a dynamic modex, but others will get rather upset if, say, their 1970's high-viz VF-1 hotrods have their modex numbers out of place, and they'll whine about immersion. Then there is also the issue that the dynamic decal system already present in DCS has an atrocious kerning problem where spacing between numbers is off, and the italic digits commonly seen on Navy jets will only make it worse. It's a problem that, to even satisfy most of us, Heatblur needs to solve all the way or not at all.

[Uxi]

Should pick a default squadron and have dynamic modex on that one... maybe VF-211 or whatever.  Ideally a squadron on one of the Forrestals or Theodore Roosevelt carriers we have in game.  

[LanceCriminal86]

I mean work is already underway to boost the numbers of liveries according to the roadmap. If squadrons can have groups of 4 MODEX that are of like years/cruises shouldn't that cover more of what's being asked for from the online folks? It seems most virtual squadrons are running their own skin packs for their own organized operations, so the remainder looking for dynamic MODEX seems to lean on the various multiplayer servers. Having a few batches of 4x MODEX should allow for a number of flights on a server to each have a unique jet.

 

As for campaigns and random generated missions, perhaps ED can provide better control over skin randomization. Allowing for fixed lists to be randomized from would give some more leeway to have randomized missions not have multiples of the same jet in a single flight. That could also let campaign makers supply a package of skins and then have them be randomized within their missions, as usually you wouldn't be flying the same jet every time.

 

The challenge of skin sizes eating up your hard drive isn't an easy solve though, short of ED allowing for heavier compression formats of skin folders. The move to Zip files seems to have helped but even still skins are hitting 500 Mb per.

 

I guess another option would be pic a squadron each for the B, late A, and earlier A and offer a full stack of 10-12 MODEX. That can be the pool for the online folks. But I still think ED needs to find some way to mix up skins within a flight or across flights in a coalition.

[Callsign JoNay]

Unpopular opinion, but for me personally modex and other options are more important than Jester Lantirn. 

[9thHunt]

13 hours ago, Swordsman422 said:

The trick with modex numbers on the F-14 is that "standard"... wasn't much. Each squadron had their own minor differences in typeface, size, and exact location across the 35 years the F-14 flew, to the point where even if Heatblur were to cover the most common placements, it still wouldn't account for half the options. Some people don't care about that and will be happy with just one placement so long as they get a dynamic modex, but others will get rather upset if, say, their 1970's high-viz VF-1 hotrods have their modex numbers out of place, and they'll whine about immersion. Then there is also the issue that the dynamic decal system already present in DCS has an atrocious kerning problem where spacing between numbers is off, and the italic digits commonly seen on Navy jets will only make it worse. It's a problem that, to even satisfy most of us, Heatblur needs to solve all the way or not at all.

Judging by the F/A-18 liveries we have, ED has already solved that problem.  The Hornet can use several different dynamic modex placements depending on the livery, and the typeface is as simple as calling a different texture with the appropriate characters.

[Swordsman422]

1 hour ago, 9thHunt said:

Judging by the F/A-18 liveries we have, ED has already solved that problem.  The Hornet can use several different dynamic modex placements depending on the livery, and the typeface is as simple as calling a different texture with the appropriate characters.

Yeah, so does the A-10, F-15, Su-27, and MiG-29. The issue here is that the Hornet didn't have as many placements as the F-14 did across its career. Take the definitions seen in the Hornet's config file, multiply it by 10, and you might have enough to cover half of the Tomcat squadron variations. That's an enormous quantity of text, and text is data, and data is HD space. And while the Hornet does have dynamic numbers, the kerning still sucks, with numbers being spread too far apart. You give an F/A-18 the modex 111, for example, and the digits are spread across half a county.

 

If Heatblur solves this, I'm sure they'll nail it.

 

[Nealius]

One aspect of dynamic modexes that I don't often see mentioned is how they are actually necessary for busy deck ops. If everyone has the same modex, how do you know which jet is your lead? Your wingman? Your section leader? Taxi/launch order is easily screwed up because we don't know who's who. When I fly SP and need to taxi after a certain jet or form up on a certain jet, I often screw it up because they all have the same modexes. The only solution so far is to use user liveries that cover a wide range of modexes....which for me resulsts in 43GB of liveries in Saved Games. Just for the Tomcat.

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Nealius

[Airhunter]

Easy solution, if you fly in a group, use the default VF-32 skins (4 with unique modex) or create your own or use the numerous full squadron user skins available online. You can limit it to one squadron to save space even.

[LanceCriminal86]

9 hours ago, Nealius said:

One aspect of dynamic modexes that I don't often see mentioned is how they are actually necessary for busy deck ops. If everyone has the same modex, how do you know which jet is your lead? Your wingman? Your section leader? Taxi/launch order is easily screwed up because we don't know who's who. When I fly SP and need to taxi after a certain jet or form up on a certain jet, I often screw it up because they all have the same modexes. The only solution so far is to use user liveries that cover a wide range of modexes....which for me resulsts in 43GB of liveries in Saved Games. Just for the Tomcat.

 

 

43gb?

 

Those are rookie numbers, you need to get those numbers up!

[Nealius]

Oh they're gonna go up once Isoko releases his new skins 

[Hector45]

I think a cool solution at least for multiplayer would be too have a way of others on the server to see your custom skin/livery. My squadron flys with our own liveries and unique modex numbers.

Not realistic in the sense that we made up our own squadron, but at least it would solve the duplicate modex numbers on deck.

I have to use my call sign for radio call outs instead of tail number to eliminate confusion. I see one number since I'm running custom livery but everyone else see's VF-103 livery 

[draconus]

17 hours ago, Hector45 said:

I think a cool solution at least for multiplayer would be too have a way of others on the server to see your custom skin/livery.

For others to see your livery they all would have to have that livery installed into their DCS. If your squad is 10 pilots - all of them has to have these additional unique 10 liveries istalled to properly be seen by each other. RIOs included. That of course means all of you have to download 10x a livery size.

It's not some hard task for programmer and texture guy to make dynamic modex. It's just a lot of work and a matter of priorities. You make research for the most used ones, make database of their placement, make proper fonts (with the exception for "1", which is the thinner one) and then put it together one by one - not in static placement but relative to each other onto the proper texture layer according to placement data. It probably needs ED/DCS cooperation to work too. After that all you need is a livery with the supported dynamic modexes and no additional files for anyone.

[Hector45]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

For others to see your livery they all would have to have that livery installed into their DCS. If your squad is 10 pilots - all of them has to have these additional unique 10 liveries istalled to properly be seen by each other. RIOs included. That of course means all of you have to download 10x a livery size.

Yes I understand how it currently works, my point was that they devise a solution were that wasn't the case. Perhaps custom skins could be uploaded to the server when a player joins and recalled from there. I recall a racing sim that has such a mod.

[Home Fries]

22 hours ago, Hector45 said:

I think a cool solution at least for multiplayer would be too have a way of others on the server to see your custom skin/livery. My squadron flys with our own liveries and unique modex numbers.

Not realistic in the sense that we made up our own squadron, but at least it would solve the duplicate modex numbers on deck.

I have to use my call sign for radio call outs instead of tail number to eliminate confusion. I see one number since I'm running custom livery but everyone else see's VF-103 livery 

This might be a more realistic solution with the broadband we have now.  It was implemented with IL-2 Forgotten battles, but those skins were limited to just over 1Mb, not the 100Mb skins we get now.  However, pumping 10 skins could be a Gigabyte of data pushed to each client that doesn't have the skins, and that will put a lot of upload stress on a server.

If ED implemented something where any public skins were in use, and they could be linked to the ED user downloads, then the clients could be linked to the ED site to get the files.  Only problem then is that the client would need to close and relaunch DCS to recognize the new skins (and most likely the client would need to manually install the skins before relaunching).

[Hector45]

23 minutes ago, Home Fries said:

This might be a more realistic solution with the broadband we have now.  It was implemented with IL-2 Forgotten battles, but those skins were limited to just over 1Mb, not the 100Mb skins we get now.  However, pumping 10 skins could be a Gigabyte of data pushed to each client that doesn't have the skins, and that will put a lot of upload stress on a server.

If ED implemented something where any public skins were in use, and they could be linked to the ED user downloads, then the clients could be linked to the ED site to get the files.  Only problem then is that the client would need to close and relaunch DCS to recognize the new skins (and most likely the client would need to manually install the skins before relaunching).

Yeah definitely a lot of data to transfer. Would be very cool if they could. I'd love to see the liveries others have come up with.

I know a lot of ppl are running their own liveries, it's obvious in the F18 when someone is.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Hector45 said:

Would be very cool if they could.

Remember from other game - instead of quick connection you wait for all downloads - terrible experience.

[Home Fries]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

Remember from other game - instead of quick connection you wait for all downloads - terrible experience.

Yeah, it should go without saying that this feature should be client optional and server controlled as well.

Another thought on this: I would love to see an optional lua entry in the skin file that would point to one of the default skins as an alias if someone didn't have the custom skin.  For example, if I'm flying a custom VF-142 skin with 201 on the side, someone who doesn't have my skin would see the VF-142 205 stock skin instead of the VF-103 line bird.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Home Fries

[Harker]

While the current implementation of dynamic bort numbers doesn't look as nice from certain angles, it is by far preferable to having multiple, near identical, full liveries, each with its own number. I, for one, do not want to have so many default liveries, as they are a waste of drive space.

The same solution could indeed be employed for canopy names etc, but it'd definitely be trickier to get it to look right.

[WelshZeCorgi]

That's why there are 4 wires, 1 for all four 201 tomcats. Conga line that shit. 

[Baz000]

How is this even up for any debate? We should have defined unique modex numbers on the jets, it is used quite extensively for comms on the boat...

Also, I'd like for whoever... HB or ED to give us the real squadron callsigns to use like bandwagon, victory, gunfighter, rage, etc etc for our navy tomcat and hornet squadrons... Make it a selection in the ME or something.