Tips for taking off with the Mosquito?

[No1sonuk]

I run up the speed gradually, using small differential thrust adjustments until the rudder is effective.

[MisterMac]

So I have been trying to replicate my specific problem so I can share the track of my attempt. So far I spend most of my time going off left or right uncontrollably. However, I did have a somewhat successful take off using @Yo-Yo advice. Slowly but Surely I am getting there. I would like to thank everybody for their input, I would never have gotten off the ground were it not for you wonderful people!

I may return throughout the coming days as I stumble through learning this beautiful bird. But in the mean time I think I am on the right track.

If I can replicate my issue again I will be sure to save the track and post it.

Thanks again everybody.

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, No1sonuk said:

I run up the speed gradually, using small differential thrust adjustments until the rudder is effective.

I generally use light taps of the brakes myself, but might give this a try to see the difference. Generally, I only need a tap or three before the rudder does its thing, as long as you don't get it squirrely. 

[No1sonuk]

2 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I generally use light taps of the brakes myself, but might give this a try to see the difference. Generally, I only need a tap or three before the rudder does its thing, as long as you don't get it squirrely. 

I've not got my rudder pedals sorted yet.  Got an analogue brake lever in the works though.
And the rudder is ineffective for a while.

Edited October 19, 2021 by No1sonuk

[NineLine]

2 minutes ago, No1sonuk said:

I've not got my rudder pedals sorted yet.  Got an analogue brake lever in the works though.
And the rudder is ineffective for a while.

 

I am using the pinky trigger on the Warthog, so its analogue as well, so you have to be very gentle. But if you use the rudder and brakes together, with gentle touches I can generally keep it where it needs to be. Give it a shot when you get your rudder pedals sorted. 

[No1sonuk]

18 hours ago, NineLine said:

I am using the pinky trigger on the Warthog, so its analogue as well, so you have to be very gentle. But if you use the rudder and brakes together, with gentle touches I can generally keep it where it needs to be. Give it a shot when you get your rudder pedals sorted. 

The pinky trigger on the Warthog stick is a digital button (#4), not analogue.  I just rechecked in case I missed something...

[stuart666]

OK so I tried a few times today, and yes, it did catch me out several times. Something has changed. Im far from convinced its not realistic though (although the pitch to the right is strange, it probably should be to the left, unless thats a result of the trim right).

How ive been doing it. Ease the throttle in slowly. Make sure you have it trimmed forward before you start. Dont try and lift the tail by pushing forward and rushing it, let the aircraft build up speed and decide when it wants it to lift the tail. At that point you might get a very slight pull to the right. Just use slight left rudder to level up. And by and large it should get itself airborne, or at least, be fairly evident when it feels ready to fly.

If im desperate yes I would use the brake, but dont overdo it. You find you can get into a left right brake cycle. And after all, you want speed, using the brakes that this point seems a bit counter intuitive.

 

[Holbeach]

I've been using High Halden for all my circuit training. (4200'). Summer, no wind.

T/O weight with 100% fuel plus 4 x 500 lb bombs, was 20282 lb. land within max weight.

Todays update, weight is now 22282 lb. but technique is the same, but with a longer run for lift off at 120 mph.

Nose down 2.0, right rudder 0.5 tick, aileron right 1 tick, 15 deg flap. 3000 rpm.

Advance throttles to 4 lb against the brakes. Let go brakes, advance to 18 lb. boost.

This will give a straight run without use of rudder or brakes until shortly after tail lift, when it will drift left. Compensate. Lift off at 120 mph. There is no spare runway now. Trees at end are closer now.

Wheels up, trim out nose up tendancy. Flaps up, trim out nose down tendancy. Stay level. build speed to 200 mph.

Drop bombs, go round to land below 20500 lb max landing. 3 point touch down at 90 mph.

Aircraft will now tip on nose with full braking and leave a double tail on ground.

Just before stopping, braking, will lift tail and drop it, causing damage to tail wheel strut.

Brake lever travel needs to be slow down.

 

..

 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Holbeach

[MisterMac]

Just wanted to say thanks to everybody for all the tips and advice. My take offs are still a bit rough, but I am getting in the air about 80% of the time. I couldn't have done it without the help of the people in this thread. So thank you very much!

[Basco1]

Same here and many thanks to Holbeach......your a lifesaver Sir.....this was really eluding me and your method nailed it for me 

[HotTom]

Thank you, Holbeach! 

[Holbeach]

A video to go with the words.

 

Video for my reference. Version 27714727. High Halden, 4200', 111', Nil wind. 100 % fuel. 4 x 500 lb bombs. 22262 lb. (262 lb overload). Flap 15%, Trim nose down 2.0, Aileron 1 tick right, Rudder, 0.3 to 0.5 right. 3000 rpm. Throttle to 4 lb boost against brakes, release and increase to max 18 lb boost. Lift off @ 120 mph.

This update added 2000 lb to the take off weight with the same store load, making this runway a bit tight. Braking has been increased to the point that the wheels lock, making a nose over likely and differential braking difficult to use with a button. I have changed to a slider and reduced air pressure from 80-100 psi, to 40 psi in the axis tuner.

Pitch stability feels good and pitch trimmer now good..

 

 

 

 

..

Edited October 27, 2021 by Holbeach

[Basco1]

Fantastic video Holbeach.....would love to see the same style video with the 'Controller Indicator' switched on so we can see your stick movements 

[grafspee]

This is my version, Mosquito loaded up don't accelerate very well nothing below 18lbs/3000rpm is safe for short airfield, as before lift off speed around 120mph.

I was under impression, that thrust of mosquito is shifted right, so i would expect that plane will crab to the left at take off, what i experiencing is that plane crabs to the right so i have to lead power with right engine, any one can explain why this is happening ?

BTW that smoke bug is anoying.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by grafspee

[MisterMac]

@grafspee While I do not have any solid answers for you I noticed the same thing taking off occasionally. but it didn't seem consistent for me. sometimes the plane would want to go left, other times right. I am curious, could it be the tail wheel not being straight? I am just throwing out the idea because I am at a bit of a loss currently on that issue.

I also find the smoke bug annoying .

[No1sonuk]

I think it IS the tail wheel.
If I taxi myself to the runway, I get significant left or right bias on the takeoff.
If I go with the "Takeoff practice" instant action, it goes straight until around rotation speed, then swings slightly left as I lift off.

[Basco1]

IMHO it's the 'rudder'.....but you guys must make your own conclusions.

I spent almost an entire morning the other day trying to work out the Mosquito take off problem.......the issue is the rudder on initial take off.....as Yo-Yo describes.

Yo-Yo says.....'The tail, generally, is out of downwash and the rudder control is close to zero till enough speed is gained. But it means that the plane gains STABILITY as well and no fast rudder work is necessary.'

So given this,the method I use works,as it almost does away with the issue of rudder or brake inputs that inhibit a straight take off run,so when advancing the boost to 4Ib holding on the brakes and then swiftly advancing the boost to 18Ib the aircraft tracks down the runway smooth and straight.....this is key to a perfect Mosquito take off.

However this is not my method......it is 'Holbeach's method'

Advance throttles to 4 lb against the brakes,let go of the brakes,and advance to 18 lb boost swiftly......(this is where I was going wrong initially,I was feeding in the power too gradually,which allows the aircraft to snake all over the place).

This will give you a  straight run without the use of rudder or brakes until shortly after tail lift...compensate and lift off at 120 Mph.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Basco1

[MisterMac]

I agree @Basco1 about having to increase power relatively quickly, I learned that the hard way through several failed take off attempts. I feel there is likely a sweet spot between increasing power fast enough but not too fast.

Though I am still needing the occasional left or right brake input right at the beginning of take off, usually because I haven't straightened my tail wheel enough I think.

A little off-topic, but when I try to land I always end up going all over the runway and the plane often decides to nose plant into the runway before I even hit the brakes, any suggestions anybody?

 

P.S. This forum has a wealth of knowledge, I appreciate you all sharing a little of it with me .

[No1sonuk]

1 minute ago, MisterMac said:

A little off-topic, but when I try to land I always end up going all over the runway and the plane often decides to nose plant into the runway before I even hit the brakes, any suggestions anybody?

I find I often "handbrake-turn" on landing.

[Basco1]

3 minutes ago, MisterMac said:

A little off-topic, but when I try to land I always end up going all over the runway and the plane often decides to nose plant into the runway before I even hit the brakes, any suggestions anybody?

Yes certainly......I find if you take a longer,lower trajectory into the runway the landing is far more sympathetic,ie more gentle.....so don't come in too high,keep it low,and long,it'll also allow you to compensate more easily,your not fighting the controls.

Anyway try it see what you think.

[MisterMac]

1 minute ago, Basco1 said:

Yes certainly......I find if you take a longer,lower trajectory into the runway the landing is far more sympathetic,ie more gentle.....so don't come in too high,keep it low,and long,it'll also allow you to compensate more easily,your not fighting the controls.

Anyway try it see what you think.

I will definitely give it a try. Thank you.

[grafspee]

I myself like steep approach, but Mosquito is not a glider like spitfire,p-51 or bf-109, i have to keep significant power almost until touch down. 3 point landing is very easy and plane rolls pretty straight.,if not i use differential braking to keep it straight.

[Basco1]

2 hours ago, grafspee said:

I myself like steep approach, but Mosquito is not a glider like spitfire,p-51 or bf-109, i have to keep significant power almost until touch down. 3 point landing is very easy and plane rolls pretty straight.,if not i use differential braking to keep it straight.

Of course Graf,and we all have our personal methods to land.....if that works for you,then great.......I must apologise if my message sounded a little dictatorial in it's presentation,I did'nt intend it to come across that way.

BTW I remember reading from a famous pilot a few years ago now......that a good landing is one where you can walk away from it ,Lol 

Loved your video on take off btw Graf,first class Sir 

 

[Morat]

On 10/25/2021 at 9:03 PM, MisterMac said:

I agree @Basco1 about having to increase power relatively quickly, I learned that the hard way through several failed take off attempts. I feel there is likely a sweet spot between increasing power fast enough but not too fast.

Though I am still needing the occasional left or right brake input right at the beginning of take off, usually because I haven't straightened my tail wheel enough I think.

A little off-topic, but when I try to land I always end up going all over the runway and the plane often decides to nose plant into the runway before I even hit the brakes, any suggestions anybody?

 

P.S. This forum has a wealth of knowledge, I appreciate you all sharing a little of it with me .

Once I'm down on three wheels I generally hold the stick right back and apply brakes. She'll take a lot of brake without tipping at first, as we slow down I just ease off the brake steadily. If the tail does come up, don't panic and let go - you can put the tail back down by a gradual release of the brake.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Morat

[ClausHoffmann]

Coming back to the original question, I still struggle with a save take off. I am coming to the conclusion, that the issue is speed. The Mossie in my impression can fly before it can steer. Aiming for a higher lift off speed helped me a lot. Is that a realistic approach/assumption?