Pilot Damage Model / Penetration Issue

[Cass]

Hi @NineLine

Hope you're good. 

Very much in need some help in understanding what's happening here as I'm hitting a bit of wall with my testing. I can obviously see that something not quite right but am unsure which part of the model is falling down. 

All tracks provided in the zip folder attached - let me know if there are any issues. 

 

General Post:

I've put off posting this for a while in the hopes of running more tests and working out what was wrong, but each test left more questions rather than fewer so thought it best just to post what I have so far in the hopes that a solution can be found. 

Having noticed the lack of pilot injuries or deaths, especially with the .50 Cal, I decided to do some testing and have found some pretty odd behaviour. I'm not sure what exactly is happening and whether there are some penetration issue with the rounds itself, the pilot's DM isn't correct, or there is something wrong with the armour values of the cockpit glass and surrounding elements. 

I tested both German and USAAF planes and both showed the same behaviour. I haven't tested the Hispano AP round although I would assume it has a similar issue based off of the tests run. 

What's more confusing is there seems to be some inconsistency as well in the tests. In one situation you would have a pilot dying very quickly, in others they simply wouldn't. 

All tests were run in SP as I don't have the luxury of my own server and can't port forward in my location. We have run some MP tests which did match what you see here, but they weren't controlled or numerous enough to include. 

For clarity in case anyone's unsure, on every aircraft there is absolutely nothing that would stop even a 50 ball round at combat ranges. It can go through 13mm of RHA at 1000m and none of these planes are fitted with RHA, it's mostly duralumin which is far less effective. The AP round should be sailing straight through the aircraft skin and the armour. The 20mm Hispano AP round is no slouch either so there should be nothing stopping that as well. 

Yak_Panther made an excellent post on the 50 Cal AP round for the IL2 Devs that runs through the penetration capabilities with sources (https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/72656-50-cal-ap-velocity-and-penetration/).

This very much isn't a 50 Cal issue either as both German and British AP or even HE rounds aren't disabling the pilot when they should be. 

DM x-rays:

D9

A8

K4

 

 

Testing Methods:

Live Tests:

These were conducted in SP with a Mustang running the AIr to Ground Belt (4xAP 1xAPIT). Time was slowed down to allow for easier aiming with the idea of landing one bank of guns into the back of the cockpit. I tried to attack slightly from above to completely avoid the fuel tanks. 

You can see that in almost all scenarios there are numerous rounds hitting directly behind the pilot at an angle where they should be going through and the pilot survives. I fast forwarded time on the tracks and in the video to show the pilot is fine. 

Ground Tests:

AI seem to have a 30s invulnerability window when starting from the ramp so I left some time to avoid this. Used numerous weapon platforms from different eras to see if it was a round issue or a DM/Armour issue. The P51 doesn't have a pilot death animation so was difficult to test in this scenario although the tests conducted produces the same results. 

Some pretty strange results. Direct pilot shots aren't instant kills even without the armour so this points to either a Pilot DM issue, or some strange armour values for the canopy itself. This would have to be the case even when the canopy is open as the P47 pilot took direct hits (strikes appeared to be slightly infront of the pilot but I'm unsure if that's just the effect registering or the round not going through something). What further confuses this is that in the A8 the rounds are appearing to go through to the engine and cause an oil leak but the pilot appears fine.

 

Scrappy video I put together showing what's happening in the tracks. Chapters in the description:

 

 

DCS_DMTest_Oct21.zip

Edited October 20, 2021 by Cass

[Magic Zach]

This checks out when you look over pilot combat reports as well.  By very far, the trait most repeated by P-51 pilots making 109 and 190 kills described the E/A suddenly slackening at the controls, implying most likely an injured or killed pilot.  This is something that almost never happens within DCS.  At least 9/10 of all my air kills are attributed to unsustainable aircraft damage, than pilot injuries.

[NineLine]

I'll take a look.

[NineLine]

Ok, so I reviewed your tracks, I checked them both in Open Beta and Trunk with the same results.

First the P-51 vs P-47 tracks.

Each time, the Pilot died. No surprise, you can see in the log you landed direct shots to the cockpit, the downside to bubble tops.

Ok, the P-51 vs P-51

Again, each time the pilot died. again, its easy to get a shot directly on the cockpit.

Now the P-51 vs K-4

In this one, you can see that only once you hit the cockpit directly, and the glass in this case stopped the round. 

This one is even more interesting, rounds passed through the cockpit, but the pilot was lucky and wasn't hit. 

This one, the pilot died, you can see that the round entered the cockpit and passed through the crew (pilot) with the obvious result of a dead pilot.

And as the previous one, again the round entered the cockpit and hit the pilot. Same result, dead pilot.

Honestly, from what I see, you did well against the K-4, even in that its a little harder to get a direct shot on the cockpit as it is not a bubble top canopy like the P-51 and P-47.

I don't see any issue here really.

Also note I did not go over the ground attack tracks, they generally can do weird things, especially when you are using modern guns.

[Cass]

Hi @NineLine,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to look at these. I originally left some of the tracks where the pilots were killed as I was wondering why it was inconsistent. 

Was something updated? I now run the tracks where the pilot didn't die (as per the video) and they are often getting killed now. 

 

 

[Cass]

Wow ok, something has definitely been updated! I can't repeat anything from those videos. 

It's a massive improvement on what was happening previously.

Pretty much there but it does still seem as though the D9 and the A8 armour are able to stop a round or 2. (confirmed this on the ground with the WW2 halftrack shooting at the armour plates- K4 is 1 hit and the A8 and D9 take 2/3. I know it's not ideal but just used it to verify).

I only say that as you might only get 1 shot that is on the pilot and if it's blocked that's obviously significant. 

The AP round can absolutely sail through the A8 or D9 backplate no problem. The below are the penetration values against rolled homogeneous steel for a basic AP round (M8 and M20 should be better than this). The back plates are dural so they nowhere near as effective at stopping rounds. 

 

Dural equivalency: 

 

 

I've attached another few tracks I've run today . The pilots get killed, but appears as though there are a few shots that's should be getting to the pilot and aren't. Would be good to see if that's the case, especially in the D9 & A8 track. 

DCSDMA8D9.zip

[Cass]

Edit: realised this sounds super nit picky. Just wanted to check and make sure on the D9 and the A8.

[Yo-Yo]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:42 PM, Cass said:

Wow ok, something has definitely been updated! I can't repeat anything from those videos. 

It's a massive improvement on what was happening previously.

Pretty much there but it does still seem as though the D9 and the A8 armour are able to stop a round or 2. (confirmed this on the ground with the WW2 halftrack shooting at the armour plates- K4 is 1 hit and the A8 and D9 take 2/3. I know it's not ideal but just used it to verify).

I only say that as you might only get 1 shot that is on the pilot and if it's blocked that's obviously significant. 

The AP round can absolutely sail through the A8 or D9 backplate no problem. The below are the penetration values against rolled homogeneous steel for a basic AP round (M8 and M20 should be better than this). The back plates are dural so they nowhere near as effective at stopping rounds. 

 

Dural equivalency: 

 

 

I've attached another few tracks I've run today . The pilots get killed, but appears as though there are a few shots that's should be getting to the pilot and aren't. Would be good to see if that's the case, especially in the D9 & A8 track. 

DCSDMA8D9.zip 469.79 kB · 1 download

If you take a look at the bullet path you can see that from dead astern you shot the bullet strikes skin - 20 mm Al armor - a tank - and only after that with significantly lower speed and increased precession strikes the armor plate. It is known effect of multi-layer screen.
If you manage to put the bullet directly to the armor plate and the bullet path continues through the pilot - the result will be different.

Just 3 mm of duralumin does a trick

And for some bullets it is really a miracle.

 

 

[amazingme]

  What about the 30mm? Seems very weak.. You need several hits to do any significant damage, whereas only 1 should be enough to take a wing off, for example.

[flygav]

From what it looks like you're not hitting them at the gun convergence. I found if I'm too far or too close it just put a bunch of holes in the plane. But if I get them at that sweet spot they go down fast.  

[Magic Zach]