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Please investigate multiple AI issues - spoiling the Sim


rkk01

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DCS WW2 is brilliant - best Sim modules on the market

Each modules feels very different and all are immersive

BUT, being WW2, getting up close and personal is part of the game - Mk. 1 Eyeball & unguided weapons

PvE works well, and I don’t use MP… but the SP combat sim is broken by the AI models and systems

AI Modules - an AI model should have the same general flight characteristics as the player flyable module, which clearly isn’t the case.  

In this thread I describe a series of 1v1 flights set up in the ME - Mossie v Anton, Dora & Kurfürst, with player control set for either Mossie or the LW aircraft.  As a player aircraft, the Anton was hopeless against an AI Mosquito… Couldn’t turn, climb, role, dive or accelerate to evade, let alone take out the Mossie. Any aggressive moves stalled and snap rolled the a/c.  The only way to beat the Mossie was head first on the first pass😮

Flipped the other way, player controlled Mossie could successfully engage the Anton, but the repeated vertical loops defied physics and the flight model - still climbing in the Anton at 170kmh…!? No stall? No snap roll???  With two Merlins the Mossie was even better at hanging on the props, but it didn’t feel very realistic…

Repeats with the Dora and Kurfürst were similar, but not as extreme - as should be expected, both German planes could dispatch the Mosquito, but it’s AI turn and climb performance both seemed unrealistic compared to player flown Dora and Kurfürst 

AI AA / AAA / Flak…. OK, so radar guided AA made an appearance in WW2, but not as represented in DCS…

Gyro stabilised gun mounts were developed for warships towards the end of the war / post war (Hazemayer, STAAG etc), but AFAIK aren’t represented in DCS - they don’t need to be…!!!

AI fire is so accurate that it can only be based on the game engine knowing the target coords (which of course it is constantly computing to run the game 🤔 )

Ship and aircraft gun platforms are constantly moving through all 3 axes - pitch, roll, yaw… yet “manually” guided, sighted and trained guns can still put rounds on target at extreme range…

10.5cm hit on a Mossie at 16km

50cal B-17 hit on a FW 190 nightfighter, at night, at 6km range…!!!

C’mon, this stuff isn’t realism and is tarnishing the sim 😕

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agreed.

I despise fighting the AI aircraft for the very reason outlined in your post. It's beyond silly that we have such delusional AI behavior in a full fidelity simulator. I remove every single AI fighter plane from all of the missions I download, leaving just the bombers in. And even the bombers exhibit some of this behavior, like the A20's diving and running away at 700kmh for 10 minutes.

 

Btw, as far as flack, I remember nineline was posting that it's a work in progress as they are focusing on its dispersion algorithm and error rates. So there's hope it'll be fixed sometime soon.. hopefully.. crossing fingers..

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3 hours ago, rkk01 said:

DCS WW2 is brilliant - best Sim modules on the market

Each modules feels very different and all are immersive

BUT, being WW2, getting up close and personal is part of the game - Mk. 1 Eyeball & unguided weapons

PvE works well, and I don’t use MP… but the SP combat sim is broken by the AI models and systems

AI Modules - an AI model should have the same general flight characteristics as the player flyable module, which clearly isn’t the case.  

In this thread I describe a series of 1v1 flights set up in the ME - Mossie v Anton, Dora & Kurfürst, with player control set for either Mossie or the LW aircraft.  As a player aircraft, the Anton was hopeless against an AI Mosquito… Couldn’t turn, climb, role, dive or accelerate to evade, let alone take out the Mossie. Any aggressive moves stalled and snap rolled the a/c.  The only way to beat the Mossie was head first on the first pass😮

Flipped the other way, player controlled Mossie could successfully engage the Anton, but the repeated vertical loops defied physics and the flight model - still climbing in the Anton at 170kmh…!? No stall? No snap roll???  With two Merlins the Mossie was even better at hanging on the props, but it didn’t feel very realistic…

Repeats with the Dora and Kurfürst were similar, but not as extreme - as should be expected, both German planes could dispatch the Mosquito, but it’s AI turn and climb performance both seemed unrealistic compared to player flown Dora and Kurfürst 

AI AA / AAA / Flak…. OK, so radar guided AA made an appearance in WW2, but not as represented in DCS…

Gyro stabilised gun mounts were developed for warships towards the end of the war / post war (Hazemayer, STAAG etc), but AFAIK aren’t represented in DCS - they don’t need to be…!!!

AI fire is so accurate that it can only be based on the game engine knowing the target coords (which of course it is constantly computing to run the game 🤔 )

Ship and aircraft gun platforms are constantly moving through all 3 axes - pitch, roll, yaw… yet “manually” guided, sighted and trained guns can still put rounds on target at extreme range…

10.5cm hit on a Mossie at 16km

50cal B-17 hit on a FW 190 nightfighter, at night, at 6km range…!!!

C’mon, this stuff isn’t realism and is tarnishing the sim 😕


...Yup

How come you dont use MP?
You know its the only way youll ever get a more realistic representation of a dogfight..
 


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30 minutes ago, StevanJ said:


...Yup

How come you dont use MP?
You know its the only way youll ever get a more realistic representation of a dogfight..
 

 

in MP the spotting is frustrating, plus the engagements are so quick that there is no way to practice the engagement or gunnery. SP is supposed to be the platform for it, at least partially. In its current state the AI is teaching you stuff that isn't real, so what's the point of learning it if all it brings is frustration.

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  The new AI seems more "human" in reactions, but it still can't cook the engine. I made some quick videos with various planes and AIs. The Anton can hold its ground pretty well against Ace AI. Enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, amazingme said:

  The new AI seems more "human" in reactions, but it still can't cook the engine. I made some quick videos with various planes and AIs. The Anton can hold its ground pretty well against Ace AI. Enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instead of spamming the forums with videos none of us will watch, can you break down what the point is youre trying to make and how it effects Ops' post..
Cheers.

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 The OP said, and I quote: "As a player aircraft, the Anton was hopeless against an AI Mosquito… Couldn’t turn, climb, role, dive or accelerate to evade, let alone take out the Mossie. Any aggressive moves stalled and snap rolled the a/c.  The only way to beat the Mossie was head first on the first pass". I proved him wrong.

 The other videos are just for showing off.. 😉 

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Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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On 10/21/2021 at 1:36 AM, rkk01 said:

AI fire is so accurate that it can only be based on the game engine knowing the target coords (which of course it is constantly computing to run the game 🤔

This is the one that really grinds my gears. Both from ground AI and from enemy fighters. In many cases I've had jinking lead me straight into sustained gunfire hits, where realistically speaking jinking should have reduced my chances of getting hit, and statistically if I had been hit it would have been a couple rounds not a constant stream like a firehose.

In the Anton I've been bested by P-47s set at Rookie level with centerline fuel tank and two 250lb bombs still attachedWith their fire a constant laser stream that continued to hit me no matter my maneuvers. 


Edited by Nealius
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14 hours ago, amazingme said:

 The OP said, and I quote: "As a player aircraft, the Anton was hopeless against an AI Mosquito… Couldn’t turn, climb, role, dive or accelerate to evade, let alone take out the Mossie. Any aggressive moves stalled and snap rolled the a/c.  The only way to beat the Mossie was head first on the first pass". I proved him wrong.

 The other videos are just for showing off.. 😉 

Point.  Missed….??!!

all but one vid not related to my OP, and the Anton v Mossie 1v1 was higher and faster start position

Anyway, my point was around the difference in a/c behaviour and capabilities between player flown and AI flown

 

 

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1 hour ago, rkk01 said:

Point.  Missed….??!!

all but one vid not related to my OP, and the Anton v Mossie 1v1 was higher and faster start position

Anyway, my point was around the difference in a/c behaviour and capabilities between player flown and AI flown

 

 

  If you are not able to win a 1v1 fight against any AI with ANY plane, then YOU have an issue, not the plane you're flying. That's the point you should take from my videos. AI is still.. AI. It is predictable even if he's a sniper, learn how not to put yourself into position where he can smoke you. If you don't know how to do that, then that's another story, you should learn how to dogfight PROPERLY, you must learn the flying envelope of both your plane and e/a's and always judge the energy states and visualize the geometry of the dogfight. This is how you can be successful in any type of dogfight. 

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Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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13 minutes ago, amazingme said:

  If you are not able to win a 1v1 fight against any AI with ANY plane, then YOU have an issue, not the plane you're flying. That's the point you should take from my videos. AI is still.. AI. It is predictable even if he's a sniper, learn how not to put yourself into position where he can smoke you. If you don't know how to do that, then that's another story, you should learn how to dogfight PROPERLY, you must learn the flying envelope of both your plane and e/a's and always judge the energy states and visualize the geometry of the dogfight. This is how you can be successful in any type of dogfight. 

 

I don't understand your position in this topic. If you are OK with the current AI behavior then GOOD.  Go on and live your life and play this game the way you want to play it.

We are NOT OK with it.  It's that simple.

Trying to prove us and showing that you can win a banana fight does absolutely nothing for improving the realism of this .. you know.. SIMULATOR.

 

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 You should keep in mind that this SIMULATOR must run on our pathetic computers. It would be ideal that AI could behave exactly like a human or their FM would be exactly like the planes we're flying, but physically, it's impossible. The devs must find the perfect compromise between the game performance and the degree of 'simulation'. I find the new AI behaving more like a human than before, and it's more of a gentleman than many players online, as it won't shoot on merge anymore. Big thumbs up for the devs! 

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Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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1 hour ago, amazingme said:

  If you are not able to win a 1v1 fight against any AI with ANY plane, then YOU have an issue, not the plane you're flying. That's the point you should take from my videos. AI is still.. AI. It is predictable even if he's a sniper, learn how not to put yourself into position where he can smoke you. If you don't know how to do that, then that's another story, you should learn how to dogfight PROPERLY, you must learn the flying envelope of both your plane and e/a's and always judge the energy states and visualize the geometry of the dogfight. This is how you can be successful in any type of dogfight. 

What an incredible arrogant away to look at Op's post..

'I dont have an issue, so heres me spamming videos 'and showing off'..

How predictable is an AI, that flies through the ground?
 

 


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14 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

What an incredible arrogant away to look at Op's post..

'I dont have an issue, so heres me spamming videos 'and showing off'..

How predictable is an AI, that flies through the ground?
 

 

 

 The OP was complaining of his inability to fight against AI. And i provided him with videos that he can carefully study in order to defeat it. BUT, bear in mind that fighting against the AI won't make you learn how to properly dogfight. You should fight against a human if you want to make any progress in that direction.

 What you provided in your video is just a bug that has nothing to do with what OP created this thread for.

 S!

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Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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3 minutes ago, amazingme said:

 The OP was complaining of his inability to fight against AI. And i provided him with videos that he can carefully study in order to defeat it. BUT, bear in mind that fighting against the AI won't make you learn how to properly dogfight. You should fight against a human if you want to make any progress in that direction.

 What you provided in your video is just a bug that has nothing to do with what OP created this thread for.

 S!

Its a video of the AI. I have hundreds of them.. Would you like me to find you another?

So you want Op to study you?
Are you for real?

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14 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Its a video of the AI. I have hundreds of them.. Would you like me to find you another?

So you want Op to study you?
Are you for real?

Are you trolling? Because otherwise I believe you have some cognitive issues that need to be addressed.

Read again the original post, then read carefully what I said in my posts.

I will stop here with my posts on this thread.

S!

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Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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 You should keep in mind that this SIMULATOR must run on our pathetic computers. It would be ideal that AI could behave exactly like a human or their FM would be exactly like the planes we're flying, but physically, it's impossible. The devs must find the perfect compromise between the game performance and the degree of 'simulation'. I find the new AI behaving more like a human than before, and it's more of a gentleman than many players online, as it won't shoot on merge anymore. Big thumbs up for the devs! 
Completely disagree.
Currently everything, (except for audio I've heard), is run on one core.
Imagine what can be done for both AI and AI aircraft flight models on multicore.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

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Gatekeeping with a pure gamer attitude of "hur dur git gud" has no place in a simulation that strives for realism. 
Yup!
And we leaned last year that 80 percent are SP players, and likely both SP and PvE players not only want better AI for aircraft, but for the ground war as well.

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  If you are not able to win a 1v1 fight against any AI with ANY plane, then YOU have an issue

This is where you are misunderstanding my OP (either intentionally, or unintentionally…)

I don’t care whether I win or lose a 1v1 against the AI… the point of flying a simulated dogfight is to learn the a/c, employ BFM and counter “enemy” tactics… 

I’m there to learn👍
 

which is pretty near impossible if an AI FW190 can do stuff a player 190 can’t do..(or for that matter a RL 190, given how frequently the modules are defended on a “correct as is” basis)

If the player and AI aircraft are capable of the same moves, at the same airspeeds , then I’ll carry on and learn them - I’ve just not yet managed to get a 190 to climb near vertical at 170-180kmh😉


Edited by rkk01
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14 minutes ago, rkk01 said:

This is where you are misunderstanding my OP (either intentionally, or unintentionally…)

I don’t care whether I win or lose a 1v1 against the AI… the point of flying a simulated dogfight is to learn the a/c, employ BFM and counter “enemy” tactics… 

I’m there to learn👍
 

which is pretty near impossible if an AI FW190 can do stuff a player 190 can’t do..(or for that matter a RL 190, given how frequently the modules are defended on a “correct as is” basis)

If the player and AI aircraft are capable of the same moves, at the same airspeeds , then I’ll carry on and learn them - I’ve just not yet managed to get a 190 to climb near vertical at 170-180kmh😉

 

 

This AI issue is directly tied to the computational workload, hence it's simplified to emulate 30+ AI planes at once near your position in DCS. The other sim moved away from the simple AI physics but ended up in the CPU limitation camp where anything more than 15 AI planes brings the cpu to its knees.

I hope to think the dev's will address this issue either during the Vulkan migration or shortly after it. They sort of hinted at it in the latest magazine interview.

Personally, the AI fighter issue isn't as critical to me as the Flack and the AA aimbots. Those I truly hate with all my guts. 😄 

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In the same way as OP, AAA is not only the king of the deflection & erasing shooting it's also the "I mind a S... if anything of my side is between my gun and my prey". Explanation:

at the end of my sortie I finished landing and once I reached the parking area I listened the Airfield AAA cannons working. I started to search in the sky so I spotted a very low incoming 109, mowing the trees, crossed the AF like a Mad Banzay Boy and made a break turn to left, at altitude ZERO. Dude.... all AF AAA focused on her. The nearest AAA to me started launching its potatoes at altitude zero and I could watch tracers passing inches away from my parked A/C but impacting a in Static B-17 and blowing up that grounded A/C. I can understand they can shoot thru trees (clouds also)due their synthetic nature, but friendly shooting? Shooting with zero pitch? Weird, also all the opposite to anything realistic.

In AI FM some models are from an outter space (Deus ex machina) : 109 in GOD MODE can be amazing watching it performing donuts as flat as they can be considered a single line, and the wonder point is not thinking the 109 cannot perform that way is why the pilot inside never melts his brain after 2 very high G's pullings like a drone, also the unlimited tolerance to Jerk.... So basically training against AI is almost useless cause in low-mid skills it makes stupid mistakes neither a human noob makes, but on the other hand in ACE mode it's like it can perform like a bullet train on rails with 2 eyes all time lock on your nose (even if you're in its low 6 it can react to evade your aiming inputs!!!) and going 10 steps forward you in terms of draining your energy to the stall (DEEP BLUE vs. Kasparov in 1997). 

So the AI's in general might be overhauled. 

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