Pieterras Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) @Wags The new implemented Feature ATC Approach mode is not working appropriately. When in Unaccelerated AND Level flight in landing configuration the Throttles close as soon as ATC is engaged... No need to provide a track file as every bit of common sense can see that that isn't correct.. if (ATC == 1) { cut throttle() } ED code Equally the throttles should make more slower gradual movements instead of excessive unless you're doing something extreme.. Cheers Edited October 20, 2021 by Pieterras 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parxuk Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) Although i've only watched it once, I thought Wags video stated that this would happen when initialised and then they would throttle up and settle to how they should be? I havent tried it myself yet though. Edited October 20, 2021 by parxuk Intel i7 8700K @ 5Ghz, Aorus Z370 Gaming5, 32GB Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 3000MHz, Nvidia 3080Ti FE, Samsung 970 NVME, Samsung 512GB EVO SSD x 2, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Saitek Rudder Pedals, HP Reverb G2, Windows 11 x64, DCS Modules = FC3, A10c Warthog, F14 Tomcat, F18 Hornet, F16 Viper, Persian Gulf, Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarTzi Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 31 minutes ago, Pieterras said: @Wags The new implemented Feature ATC Approach mode is not working appropriately. When in Unaccelerated AND Level flight in landing configuration the Throttles close as soon as ATC is engaged... No need to provide a track file as every bit of common sense can see that that isn't correct.. if (ATC == 1) { cut throttle() } ED code Equally the throttles should make more slower gradual movements instead of excessive unless you're doing something extreme.. Cheers You should post a track because it seems like you are not using it correctly. No problams on my end. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) @1.54 ATC initialization zeros out the throttles. So this is expected and correct behavior. Edited October 20, 2021 by Wizard_03 1 DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift. Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Remember to trim onspeed before you engage ATC, I imagine the resultant of not doing that is the jet cutting the throttle as you are 'very fast' 2 476th Discord | 476th Website | Swift Youtube Ryzen 5800x, RTX 4070ti, 64GB, Quest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_auau Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 tried it for the first time and everything worked to plan no issues at all, found it alot easier than using manual controls of throttles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanK Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 I agree 100% with Pieterras comment on ATC implementation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, IvanK said: I agree 100% with Pieterras comment on ATC implementation. Based on what? According to NATOPS the throttles are back driven when either mode is engaged THEN moved to capture mach in cruise or on speed in approach mode respectively. So in other words power is cut and brought back when the button first gets pressed. Edited October 21, 2021 by Wizard_03 2 1 DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldcrusty Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 I gave it a quick test on my way back from a mission... it's way behind the curve. Too slow, regardless whether it was activated when on speed or at 220 kts. After initial power down to flt idle (it shouldn't do this when the jet is on speed) it took too long to capture the proper AOA again. When I engaged ATC at 220 kts, the power to idle was no reason to worry but when onspeed AOA crept up, the power didn't catch it in timely manner and since I was already at 1200 ft. my butt 'tightened up' a little when I saw the VV dip way too much. I can anticipate and do corrections manually a lot better. It needs to be tweaked... in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanK Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Wizard_03 said: Based on what? According to NATOPS the throttles are back driven when either mode is engaged THEN moved to capture mach in cruise or on speed in approach mode respectively. So in other words power is cut and brought back when the button first gets pressed. Based on Real life experience. Yes backdriven ... just slightly but not a reduction of 13% N2 followed by gross overswings. 2 hours ago, Wizard_03 said: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, IvanK said: Based on Real life experience. Yes backdriven ... just slightly but not a reduction of 13% N2 followed by gross overswings. PM bignewy they evidently think it's right. DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanK Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 I have posted/reported in the Beta areas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift. Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Kinda sounds like it's behaving exactly the same as it was before they 'added' it. 3 476th Discord | 476th Website | Swift Youtube Ryzen 5800x, RTX 4070ti, 64GB, Quest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagohu Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 5 hours ago, Wizard_03 said: Based on what? According to NATOPS the throttles are back driven when either mode is engaged THEN moved to capture mach in cruise or on speed in approach mode respectively. So in other words power is cut and brought back when the button first gets pressed. I wouldn't like to sit in an airplane and use it's auto-throttle if it'd first go to flight idle, no matter what. It just goes against common sense, especially in an approach mode. Even the old analogue ATs I've seen (TU-134/154) didn't do that, let alone the digital ones (based on my experience as a flight engineer in my young days). I'm not a Hornet guy, but Pieterras represents the opinion of a bunch of IRL pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Kazansky Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Does anyone know whether there are minimums for the use of ATC in approach mode IRL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKULA_OPTIMUS Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Swiftwin9s said: Kinda sounds like it's behaving exactly the same as it was before they 'added' it. This, honestly I didn´t notice much of a difference, if any, with the "old" ATC on approaches. What has changed? Is it more sensitive or anyhing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieterras Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, pete_auau said: tried it for the first time and everything worked to plan no issues at all, found it alot easier than using manual controls of throttles It doesn’t work fine, as your throttles shouldn’t close when engaging ATC. They should zero out, meaning getting rid of, different thrust imbalance, making sure each engine gives the same output. It doesn’t mean to go idle. 7 hours ago, Gripes323 said: I gave it a quick test on my way back from a mission... it's way behind the curve. Too slow, regardless whether it was activated when on speed or at 220 kts. After initial power down to flt idle (it shouldn't do this when the jet is on speed) it took too long to capture the proper AOA again. When I engaged ATC at 220 kts, the power to idle was no reason to worry but when onspeed AOA crept up, the power didn't catch it in timely manner and since I was already at 1200 ft. my butt 'tightened up' a little when I saw the VV dip way too much. I can anticipate and do corrections manually a lot better. It needs to be tweaked... in my opinion. Thanks, for confirming Edited October 21, 2021 by Pieterras 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_auau Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Pieterras said: It doesn’t work fine, as your throttles shouldn’t close when engaging ATC. They should zero out, meaning getting rid of, different thrust imbalance, making sure each engine gives the same output. It doesn’t mean to go idle. maybe but it got the job done is what matters Edited October 21, 2021 by pete_auau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieterras Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 7 hours ago, Wizard_03 said: Based on what? According to NATOPS the throttles are back driven when either mode is engaged THEN moved to capture mach in cruise or on speed in approach mode respectively. So in other words power is cut and brought back when the button first gets pressed. Based on flying myself, and being very aware of the dangers involved with unwanted thrust reductions And confirmation of about 3/4 current and ex hornet drivers. I rarely moan agains ED’s implementations however this time they are off. backdriven and closing are 2 very different things. The backdriving is to 0 out thrust imbalance and should hardly be noticeable when being ON-speed in level flight. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieterras Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 @BIGNEWY @Wags He both... Would you be able to reiterate where the correct as is comes from? I know Matt has been in contact with a real life hornet pilot to work on the correct implementation of the system. However the thrust reduction on ATC engagement has not been confirmed by any real life hornet pilot, equally would cause a very undesirable state of energy for the aircraft. It would counteract its workload reduction capability, by temporarily causing a severely unwanted energy state. During manual operation of the throttles, pneumatic throttle boost actuators powered by environmental control system (ECS) air reduce the force required to move the throttles. During automatic throttle control (ATC) operation, the pneumatic boost actuators are disengaged. For this to happen the ECS air to the torque boosters is shut off, the throttles are initially backdriven by the build in servo's. A backdrive is a component used in reverse to obtain its input from its output. I therefore kindly ask whether it would be possible not to just close this toppic by saying "correct as is" however please contact the sources used. (And knowing the source myself, He will be very keen to confirm correct or incorrect implementation of the system). Equally I could deliver multiple sources that would love to do the same. Regards, 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted October 21, 2021 ED Team Share Posted October 21, 2021 We are taking another look at this. thanks 1 4 Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieterras Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said: We are taking another look at this. thanks Thanks both, Very much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AG-51_Razor Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Maybe IvanK can comment on this but I have been given to understand that IRL the legacy Hornet drivers used this "feature" very rarely. Maybe that is because, if true, the ATC didn't work worth a damn ?? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieterras Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 44 minutes ago, AG-51_Razor said: Maybe IvanK can comment on this but I have been given to understand that IRL the legacy Hornet drivers used this "feature" very rarely. Maybe that is because, if true, the ATC didn't work worth a damn ?? Irl. It was and is used for Case I II and III,,, it is however not a Case III or ACLS, specific function.. also not every pilot was allowed to use it, as a certain level of experience was required for it to be used... Having spoken to a few of them today and yesterday. The system was and is still working very well, and guidance on how the system is to be used is written in NATOPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanK Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 My experience was all land based. For us we actually used power as the primary control of AOA down final rather than the NAVY method of using pitch. As such our everyday technique in manual thrust was the same as is required in ATC mode.. Pitch for flight path and power for AOA. How many times was ATC used in approach mode ? A personal thing as nothing was mandated based on recovery conditions. In my case probably on about 25% of instrument approaches ...ILS/GCA/TAC/VOR. Having said that if I was shooting an approach to no shit minimas I would not hesitate using ATC. Used correctly ATC approach mode was smooth and very accurate. The typical pitch corrections you make on an instrument final were easily handled by the ATC. Another snippet ATC cruise mode actually refrences TAS not IAS at time of selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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