correct as-is Take Off assistance percentage bar has been removed from the 'Special' Options

[Basco1]

As from today's update the take off assistance percentage bar has been removed from the 'Special' options,so now you will not get any take off assistance at all should you require it.....it was there before the update,but now it's been removed.

It seems it's the only Warbird that is missing this option all the others still have this option.

As I don't recall it being an issue with anyone....I am at a loss to why it's been removed......any ideas ?

[NineLine]

I'm not sure why it was removed, I will find out.

**Edit: The team decided it wasnt really helping currently as the rudder doesnt have enough power to steer at the start of the run.

[HotTom]

Well, tell "The Team" it was helpful to some of us and no one was complaining. If it ain't broke, you know....

[NineLine]

I will pass it along.

[Basco1]

8 hours ago, HotTom said:

Well, tell "The Team" it was helpful to some of us and no one was complaining. If it ain't broke, you know....

@NineLine Thank you,yeah.....you see,this is why DCS can be so infuriating to us pilots/customers......of all the issues that have been discussed and chewed over since the Mosquito's release,the team decide to remove/alter something that everybody had no issues with.I have not seen one member mention this assistance causing them a problem,or asking for it's removal.

However as from today I have already witnessed several pilots struggling with their take offs,because unknown to them the take off assistance by default was,until the last update set at 100%.Now I know this being an old lag on here,as do I expect several others.....but unless you did know that this assistance was by default set at 100% you'd be non the wiser and think your take off's were great,when in fact you were being assisted.....a lot !

So did this really require it's removal ?....I don't think so,and I'll go further,this is one of the reasons why DCS is always moving one step forward and two steps back.....and it does'nt give us much hope that the real issues discussed are given the priority that they deserve.

One of the biggest issues that we would all I'm sure,like addressed pretty soon is the delayed fuze issue on the bombs.....this to me and I expect countless others really demands attention because at present you cannot use the Mosquito in it's intended role.....that of a low flying fighter/bomber.

Sorry to labour the point...but this is an issue not the 'take off assistance' percentage bar,everyone presumably was ok with,so priorities only please.....or we'll all be waiting until doomsday to have the real issues addressed,with all due respect.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Basco1

[NineLine]

Dear all, I have talked to the team about this, and while they agree it most certainly could have been communicated better they 100% felt it was doing more harm that good. The goal now is to design and/or update the current system to properly function with a twin engine aircraft. Once they have that, it will be added back in. Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Basco1]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

The goal now is to design and/or update the current system to properly function with a twin engine aircraft. Once they have that, it will be added back in. Thanks for your understanding.

 

Appreciated NineLine and thank you for raising the issue for us......as for their view that it was doing more harm than good,how can the assistance do harm ?,in what way ?.....ask them to explain this to everyone who is asking on these very forums 'how do I stop this module from snaking down the runway'......the assistance does help without doubt I personally have tried it and it does inhibit the snaking.

As for creating/updating a new system to function with a twin aircraft,this is not going to happen over night,and whilst I can appreciate the great work going on behind the scenes the assistance was at the very least a small help especially for those that don't have expensive quality hardware to help them as I have.

However I fully appreciate your help,so thank you very much Sir.

[grafspee]

11 hours ago, Basco1 said:

@NineLine Thank you,yeah.....you see,this is why DCS can be so infuriating to us pilots/customers......of all the issues that have been discussed and chewed over since the Mosquito's release,the team decide to remove/alter something that everybody had no issues with.I have not seen one member mention this assistance causing them a problem,or asking for it's removal.

 

 

I have seen quite a lot ppl complaining about take off assist, pretty every topic involving question about take off, first question always is "Did you turn off take off assist".

[Basco1]

Yeah appreciated....and on the flip side of the coin I spoke to guys today who up until today had no problems with their take offs thinking their skills were great.....only to update yesterday and are now finding it nye on impossible to just take off.

This was all down to them not realising the assist was on 100% at default and now they have no assist at all,not even a 10% helping hand in short they're all struggling.

I probably like yourself knew you could turn this off or turn down the assist but they did'nt,for what ever reason they had'nt read about this being an option or nobody had informed them.

But,hey it does'nt matter now,it's all academic.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Basco1

[HotTom]

39 minutes ago, Basco1 said:

Yeah appreciated....and on the flip side of the coin I spoke to guys today who up until today had no problems with their take offs thinking their skills were great.....only to update yesterday and are now finding it nye on impossible to just take off.

This was all down to them not realising the assist was on 100% at default and now they have no assist at all,not even a 10% helping hand in short they're all struggling.

I probably like yourself knew you could turn this off or turn down the assist but they did'nt,for what ever reason they had'nt read about this being an option or nobody had informed them.

But,hey it does'nt matter now,it's all academic.

 

This was my situation. I didn't check and assumed the assist was off. It wasn't. I was pretty pleased with myself with being able to master the takeoff so quickly. Well, I had help as it turns out. Now, without the assist,  taking off is a nightmare.

WE don't know who "the team" is (Ain't an anonymity grand! No accountability!) But NineLine has awarded himself a "Solution" medal so I suspect he at least had a major hand in it.

Please, "The Team," put it back. For the player it is optional. The hard core simmer can turn it off. The rest of us can take off and enjoy the mod. Where's the harm? There is none.

Put it back. It wasn't broken. Why "fix" it?

 

[NineLine]

2 minutes ago, HotTom said:

But NineLine has awarded himself a "Solution" medal so I suspect he at least had a major hand in it.

Well, this is a super assumption.

First, I marked it as a solution as this IS the current answer, and as a thread fills up, these responses get lost.

Second, I was take by surprise by its removal, and have already raised my own concerns with the team about removing something without any warning, this includes warning ME so I can share the answer with all of you, which is why I had to go ask at first.

But if it makes you feel better, I can be the one to blame for it, it would be wrong, but I am ok with it.

[Yo-Yo]

Assist for fighter planes is very useful AS YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING WITH it. So, I agree (I experienced it several times!) that considering it OFF, although it's actually ON , can be quite confusing... but it is very easy to find out if it is On or OFF: if you freeze the pedals and somebody controls the rudder, it means it is ON.
There is another thing many users do not pay attention to: TO assistant is your instant reflexes, and you have not to compensate airplane fast veering - just apply slow and gentle rudder input to correct the main direction.

As the one-engine planes have no natural STABILITY at the start of the run and as all taildraggers are unstable, they have a lot of CONTROLLABILITY, as the tail is in the downwash stream. It is like a  tightrope walker - he is unstable, but if he has a fan or a long pole - he has a lot of control power to keep balance.
So, for example, some planes like Spitfire require relatively fast power-on to gain control.
Mosquito, as you can see, is a very different beast. The tail, generally, is out of downwash and the rudder control is close to zero till enough speed is gained. But it means that the plane gains STABILITY as well and no fast rudder work is necessary.
So, it is obvious that TO assistant, that is necessary at the start of the run, is absolutely useless in Mosquito because of the lack of control power, and its work just confuses the user.
It can not do its work at all - keep the plane path straight counteracting any external or internal destabilizing factors. Moreover, if the user tries to add a bit of brakes to help the assistant, it can aggravate the situation with strong overcorrection due to increased steering power..

So, I am very doubt if this TO for Mosquito would be useful for anybody. Rather it would confuse our users, that's why it was disabled. Auto rudder, though, works in the air as usual.

15 minutes ago, HotTom said:

This was my situation. I didn't check and assumed the assist was off. It wasn't. I was pretty pleased with myself with being able to master the takeoff so quickly. Well, I had help as it turns out. Now, without the assist,  taking off is a nightmare.

WE don't know who "the team" is (Ain't an anonymity grand! No accountability!) But NineLine has awarded himself a "Solution" medal so I suspect he at least had a major hand in it.

Please, "The Team," put it back. For the player it is optional. The hard core simmer can turn it off. The rest of us can take off and enjoy the mod. Where's the harm? There is none.

Put it back. It wasn't broken. Why "fix" it?

 

It was my decision, and I explained why it was done.

[Basco1]

No we won't have that NineLine.....you had nothing to do with this.......it was not you who made the decision,and it was not you who has refused it's re implementation,no one is,or should be blaming you.

You at least tried to help in raising the issue with the team,so again,thank you.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Basco1

[HotTom]

Thank you you, Yo-Yo, for stepping up and taking responsibility. Apologies to NineLine. Being the messenger isn't always fun.

That said, what is wrong with allowing the option? I will argue that, having unwittingly been using the assist, it became a nightmare for me as soon as it was gone. It DOES make a difference. Put it back, Yo-Yo, and let the customers have the choice. What's the harm?

[Yo-Yo]

46 minutes ago, HotTom said:

Thank you you, Yo-Yo, for stepping up and taking responsibility. Apologies to NineLine. Being the messenger isn't always fun.

That said, what is wrong with allowing the option? I will argue that, having unwittingly been using the assist, it became a nightmare for me as soon as it was gone. It DOES make a difference. Put it back, Yo-Yo, and let the customers have the choice. What's the harm?

It becomes interesting to me.. very differs from my experience,  could you remember in details how did you interact with this option,  where do you see it really helped, etc.

[Basco1]

Yo-Yo,if I may.....I can't speak for HotTom but for me the assist does help,I never used the full 100%,but I did find a nice compromise using 25% of the assist.

I don't get many hours to fly so when I do I do not want to spend a whole afternoon trying to just take off !.....so yes I was occasionally using a 25% assist,it helps to straighten out the wild aggressive snaking the Mosquito module currently has.

I have tried and tried to get the take off right but it just does'nt want to play ball with me,maybe my poor skills,but I'm not sure it's all down to me.....I have flown and mastered all of the DCS WW2 warbirds yet the Mossie take off is eluding me at present.

My flights always include 67% fuel and 4 x 500 Ib bombs.

My procedure is probably no different to others,nose down elevator trim to 1.5 - 2 clicks,flaps 10-15%,rudder trim slightly to the right,holding the brake in,powering up very slowly the RPM.I then release the brakes power up the RPM gradually as I track down the runway,slowly moving the stick to the neutral position and finally at 3000 RPM and at about 130 MPH allow the aircraft to rotate,keeping the nose down,raising the gear and finally raising the flaps.

I find using any brakes inhibits the quality of the tracking down the runway whilst taking off so I resist using them,obviously I do use my rudder to correct any snaking.

Now without using the assist I fail in my take offs,about 2 out of every 5 attempts if I'm honest,however using 25% of the assist I get a full 5 out of 5 attempts correct,so you can see it helps,as it does others.I have tried as well,I don't want you or others thinking I'm not trying hard enough,I really have given my take offs top priority.Landing is simple the Mosquito lands beautifully,and I don't have any issues with it's general flight either.....it's just the blessed take offs,lol.

I expect there will be others that will complain about their take offs here in the coming weeks as they find their take off situation now compromised.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Basco1

[HotTom]

2 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

It becomes interesting to me.. very differs from my experience,  could you remember in details how did you interact with this option,  where do you see it really helped, etc.

Well, I started out with the option enabled (I didn't know it at the time) and after awhile I mastered taking off very nicely with two notches of nose down trim, two notches of right aileron trim and a very slow and conservative throttle acceleration.

As soon as the update was released, I was all over the runway (and off of it frequently). I could tell immediately something had changed (I guessed the trim controls) but Basco's post about the takeoff assist told me what I needed to know. I hadn't even checked the Special menu. 

The change without the assist was quite drastic and I'm trying to learn how to live without it. Air starts are a possibility but I would rather take off and land from the runway. My guess is many others are having the same problem. It's otherwise a very good module (Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?).

Please put the option back. No one is required to use it.

Thanks,

HT

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by HotTom

[Yo-Yo]

Ok, but could you explain in details, what part of takeoff goes wrong without the assistance - initial slow run, rising the tail or something else?

[HotTom]

The initial slow run is fine. I advance the throttle very slowly. There is some swinging before the tail comes up but it s manageable. The tail comes up and that's when I start to swing. Often right off the runway. Can't recover it with rudder or brakes. Can't avoid overcorrection. Once it goes, it's gone. Not very technical but I hope that helps.

Edited October 22, 2021 by HotTom

[Farmer]

Since the update my analogue brake control that I had set up and worked perfectly has now reversed so that I could not taxi until I moved the mini stick in the opposite direction. Instead of pulling I had to push to release. What if anything was changed in the wheel brake area?

[HotTom]

Just an update: I find I do better with trim settings at default and leaving the stick at NEUTRAL instead of starting the roll with the stick pulled back.

[Hawkeye_UK]

9 hours ago, NineLine said:

Dear all, I have talked to the team about this, and while they agree it most certainly could have been communicated better they 100% felt it was doing more harm that good. The goal now is to design and/or update the current system to properly function with a twin engine aircraft. Once they have that, it will be added back in. Thanks for your understanding.

 

Better Communicated?  As usual dev's do one thing, english speaking customers get chinese whispers or in this instancelittle information and reason.  How about get the new system in place for helping newer players prior to removing one that worked?

I'm fortunate in that im used to flying warbirds and have a very good hardware setup with hydraulic dampened MFG rudder pedals with toe brakes.  I feel sorry for people that dont have rudder pedals it must be nearly impossible to take off, or less quality ones that do have the accuracy.

To note the amount the brake affects with rudder the lateral nose attitude id also heavily question its sensitivity for a prop plane.  Just like the elevator trim notches for joystick binds.  Deaf ears on the English forums, abolsutely. 

Ive gone from highly recommending the module  - to telling people to steer well clear of it if new to props and lacking hardware as having seen loads of people crashing today who are just no longer enjoying the module.

What were the dev's thinking - detached from commercial reality?

Talking of such and last point its not a great commercial decision - this will negatively affect your sales i'm certain as words spread fast (especially when you have large online squadrons expressing issues).  To note i may just try and take off without rudders pedals, i doubt its even possible yet note at the point of sale you mention no requirement in the hardware.  If you can't get it airborne without rudder pedals then it's a sold by misleading which is a strong case for refunding the module.

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Hawkeye_UK

[NineLine]

3 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Better Communicated?  As usual dev's do one thing, english speaking customers get chinese whispers or in this instancelittle information and reason.  How about get the new system in place for helping newer players prior to removing one that worked?

I'm fortunate in that im used to flying warbirds and have a very good hardware setup with hydraulic dampened MFG rudder pedals with toe brakes.  I feel sorry for people that dont have rudder pedals it must be nearly impossible to take off, or less quality ones that do have the accuracy.

To note the amount the brake affects with rudder the lateral nose attitude id also heavily question its sensitivity for a prop plane.  Just like the elevator trim notches for joystick binds.  Deaf ears on the English forums, abolsutely. 

Ive gone from highly recommending the module  - to telling people to steer well clear of it if new to props and lacking hardware as having seen loads of people crashing today who are just no longer enjoying the module.

What were the dev's thinking - detached from commercial reality?

Talking of such and last point its not a great commercial decision - this will negatively affect your sales i'm certain as words spread fast (especially when you have large online squadrons expressing issues).  To note i may just try and take off without rudders pedals, i doubt its even possible yet note at the point of sale you mention no requirement in the hardware.  If you can't get it airborne without rudder pedals then it's a sold by misleading which is a strong case for refunding the module.

 

 

I'd appreciate it if you brought it down a notch or two, I stated that we have discussed how this was not done the way it should have been, but it wasn't out of ill intent, it was that the people in control of this aspect of the Mossie felt it hurt more than it helped. Again, it should have been communicated better, and more discussion, but flying off the handle at this point isn't going to help, me and Yo-Yo are here communicating.  Your feedback is appreciated, and if it was indeed helping you and others, I am happy to take that back to the devs and push for it to be put back until a better system is in place.

5 hours ago, Farmer said:

Since the update my analogue brake control that I had set up and worked perfectly has now reversed so that I could not taxi until I moved the mini stick in the opposite direction. Instead of pulling I had to push to release. What if anything was changed in the wheel brake area?

This is an unfortunate aspect of Early Access, as things are tweaked and adjust controls can be changed without notice. I don't think it has anything to do with the Auto Assist though.

 

3 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

To note the amount the brake affects with rudder the lateral nose attitude id also heavily question its sensitivity for a prop plane.  Just like the elevator trim notches for joystick binds.  Deaf ears on the English forums, abolsutely. 

Control sensitivity seems to be an issue across the board right now, but this is EA, things like this can be expected, and are being looked at.

[Yo-Yo]

7 hours ago, HotTom said:

The initial slow run is fine. I advance the throttle very slowly. There is some swinging before the tail comes up but it s manageable. The tail comes up and that's when I start to swing. Often right off the runway. Can't recover it with rudder or brakes. Can't avoid overcorrection. Once it goes, it's gone. Not very technical but I hope that helps.

 

I think, I nailed the problem. The tail comes up a bit early. The real Mosquito was known to have the same feature.  The tail does not get enough power to stabilize  and control. Try to gradually reduce nose-down trim, the plane requires not more than 1 tick (the right way to set correct value is to avoid parallax reading). Anyway,  you can set gear down, flaps down 10 during flight and ttim the plane at 120-140 mph,  then use this trim position for TO, wherever you see the pointer. 

[Basco1]

Thanks for the tip Yo-Yo I've got some time off today so I'll give this a go,appreciate you trying to sort this out for us,we'll get there I'm sure 

 

EDIT: Out of interest my take off headaches are when the aircraft is heavily loaded ie Mission ready,but I want it this way,there is no point to me learning how to take off without a full load of bombs and hardly any fuel in the tanks.

So with this in mind are your findings based on the aircraft being heavily loaded ? or it being lightly loaded.......taking off lightly loaded is no problem to me,I can do that easily without any assistance,just to be clear.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Basco1