reported AIM120 odd behaviour (Target selection on pitbull)

[GGTharos]

Doppler, range and angle gates.  If it doesn't find a contact that matches those, it throws those gates open and then the real fun begins.

[tflash]

I do not know if it is related, but since the latest update I've been killed two times in a row by an AIM-120C of my own AI wingman! Two different missions, 1 mission I was flying F-16C, the second F-15C. In both cases my AI wingman shoots me when I ask him to engage bandits. 

Is there a comms command to express my hurt feeling to my AI wiingman before I bail out? 

[Rissala]

On 10/27/2021 at 7:41 AM, nighthawk2174 said:

Odd with the datalink now that shouldn't happen, even post pitbull datalink updates are sent to the missile and would prevent this.  This is why shooting into furballs with 120's is a thing that can be done IRL.

Jesus christ. No. That is not done IRL.

[KenobiOrder]

2 hours ago, Rissala said:

Jesus christ. No. That is not done IRL.

I have heard differently

Edited November 20, 2021 by KenobiOrder

[oldcrusty]

10 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Doppler, range and angle gates.  If it doesn't find a contact that matches those, it throws those gates open and then the real fun begins.

Well... I believe we're getting somewhere. I did 5 sorties against 4 maneuvering J11's (unarmed of course) and they all cooperated nicely by staying in my scan volume. In all 5, 4 kills.

I watched every missile in replays (in F2). They updated nicely. Going pitbull was noticeable. Also, there was a 'wobble' when missile was notched (I'm speculating on this one) but none of them got spoofed.  Now, I'm really anxious to see what the devs come up with with this 'range and angle gating'

 

[tflash]

I guess AI aircraft apply the same logic? Would explain what happened to me with the (un)friendly AI. Was in  a furball situation where I was close to the bandits. 

[GGTharos]

15 hours ago, KenobiOrder said:

I have heard differently

You heard wrong.  You shoot into a furball only if your wingman is likely to die anyway.  Checking that the missile's path is clear of friendly is standard procedure.

[KenobiOrder]

11 hours ago, GGTharos said:

You heard wrong.  You shoot into a furball only if your wingman is likely to die anyway.  Checking that the missile's path is clear of friendly is standard procedure.

Yeah no I didn't.

[KenobiOrder]

11 hours ago, GGTharos said:

You shoot into a furball only if your wingman is likely to die anyway.

Did you see anyone qualify this otherwise? Curious ability you have to read things into comments.

Edited November 22, 2021 by KenobiOrder

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Was watching a tacview. 
I see someone fire an amraam, and it runs out of juice. It is basically hanging still in the air with almost no speed left. 
The second amraam fired from the same aircraft went after the first amraam instead of the aircraft behind it. 

I'm surprised the amraam could even see the other (mach 0.16 ? or something) amraam. 

Again i must note that both amraams were fired from the same aircraft, so they were both traveling in the same direction. So not even towards eachother. 

I've also seen amraams go after sidewinders. They're super small. 

It is kind of weird at the moment. 

[okopanja]

On 11/22/2021 at 10:19 PM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

They're super small. 

Lets not use hyperbola there. Air-to-air missiles are not small. It may looks so on your screen but I would never called them "super small".

On 11/20/2021 at 2:02 PM, GGTharos said:

Doppler, range and angle gates.  If it doesn't find a contact that matches those, it throws those gates open and then the real fun begins.

The purpose of Doppler, range and angle gates, is to keep the missile going after a designated target and hit that specific target. If the target goes outside of these parameters, why would designer choose for missile to go maddog? E.g. is this behavior described in any documentation?

Or, is it just to say we assume anything flying in the area should be killed in order not to waste our $1.5M worth missile (civilian aircraft, friendly, etc)?

If the pilot wanted to be fired in maddog mode, he would have done so, or at least I would expect he could decide on launch parameters (e.g. once original target is lost kill anything/simply abort). Now we know that ROE are usually defined prior to the missions (although may be changed in accordance to the situation). I could imagine maddog scenario only if ROE allowed for it, and these can change. This would imply that missile would need to be configured in line with ROE at latest prior to the lunch (or even before takeoff). If this is the case how can the pilot flip the switch maddog on/off?

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by okopanja

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

The purpose of Doppler, range and angle gates, is to keep the missile going after a designated target and hit that specific target. If the target goes outside of these parameters, why would designer choose for missile to go maddog? E.g. is this behavior described in any documentation?

 

Yes it is, and because lots of things can invalidate the parameters, including your target not being there.

 

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

Or, is it just to say we assume anything flying in the area should be killed in order not to waste our $1.5M worth missile (civilian aircraft, friendly, etc)?

You should always clear the area before you shoot.  This is the pilot's job and that's all there is to this.

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

If the pilot wanted to be fired in maddog mode, he would have done so, or at least I would expect he could decide on launch parameters (e.g. once original target is lost kill anything/simply abort). Now we know that ROE are usually defined prior to the missions (although may be changed in accordance to the situation). I could imagine maddog scenario only if ROE allowed for it, and these can change. This would imply that missile would need to be configured in line with ROE at latest prior to the lunch (or even before takeoff). If this is the case how can the pilot flip the switch maddog on/off?

MADDOG is a launch without data.  That's all there is to it. 

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

MADDOG is a launch without data.  That's all there is to it. 

well lost gates = maddog

Regarding the documentation, is this something general public is allowed to read?

[GGTharos]

I don't think there's anything new available in public, but you could read about how the much older sparrow does it.   And no, 'lost gates' are not MADDOG.   The system still has some prior knowledge and how 'open' it throws the gates is unknown. 

[nighthawk2174]

On 11/20/2021 at 2:50 PM, Rissala said:

Jesus christ. No. That is not done IRL.

I've been told the exact opposite very clearly so no I know it is in fact a thing that is trained too.