Jump to content

G overload damage limit decreases with the increase of speed


Northwind

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The new G limits are horrible. Making the F-5 unplayable in PvP. Event today saw 50% of F-5 losses to wing failures. 

 

Was wake turbulense on? That shit can make wings snap 'easier', cause of sudden forces being applied.

  • Like 1

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| Windows 11 | i5-12400 | 64Gb DDR4 | RTX 3080 | 2x M.2 | 27" 1440p | Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFG Crosswind pedals |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Knock-Knock said:

Was wake turbulense on? That shit can make wings snap 'easier', cause of sudden forces being applied.

Nope. The wings are snapping during sustained G loads that don’t cause pilot blackout. Considering how long the F-5/T-38 has been in service and metal fatigue is cumulative, I think we would know about all of the real world losses due to structural failure if this were an accurate implementation. 
 

Quote from active duty fighter pilot during yesterday’s Cold War event. “It is sad that I am afraid of pulling the wings off”

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ran it around in free flight clean and for whatever reason maybe luck seems pretty good to me - in the transonic region at low alts breaking 11G - 12.5G - but at lower speeds cannot generate the Gs for this to be any concern. 

There is no point referencing reality when reality involves flying under 7.33G which is the max G limit clean. It sounds like DCS gamers have got used to ignoring limits and flying it like an arcade game. (Any perceived structural margin is NOT your limit!!)

Relax the stick / changing the pitch curves might help. Maybe a G indicator option on screen all the time might help.

 

The T-38 was built to an initial 15000 hour lifetime and 7.33G at 50% fuel and has clearly been used as intended if it is still in use today - also going through various structure upgrade programs. https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/612443/maintainers-extend-life-of-t-38-talon/.

The F-5E is a different aircraft with an initial 8000 hour lifetime and built to 7.33G at 100% internal fuel.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tested a little yesterday, and the only way I could snap the wings was to just pull too many G's when going supersonic, or when I just yank the stick into my lap while doing 600+ kts SL. If I just applied the G's more gentle, then I could easily pull 9-10G (I didnt reach 11 that way).


Edited by Knock-Knock

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| Windows 11 | i5-12400 | 64Gb DDR4 | RTX 3080 | 2x M.2 | 27" 1440p | Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFG Crosswind pedals |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder if the "problem" is really  hitting a G limit because I was doing some bombing on the range and during a smooth pullup at 541.9 knots pulling 3.5 G's (according to Tacview) my wings came off. I had half fuel, One Mk82 and three BDU-33's so I don't think overweight was an issue.

On the plus side, the aircaft was still controllable minus some aileron limits and having my stall speed a bit higher but I managed to bring it home and land safely.

About a year ago I was experiencing the same issues with the C101 which was later patched to correct the issue.

Sadly, I forgot to save my trackfile.  I was too busy with Fraps filming my superior pilot skills...


Edited by Andurula
bad spelling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Andurula said:

I wonder if the "problem" is really  hitting a G limit because I was doing some bombing on the range and during a smooth pullup at 541.9 knots pulling 3.5 G's (according to Tacview) my wings came off. I had half fuel, One Mk82 and three BDU-33's so I don't think overweight was an issue.

On the plus side, the aircaft was still controllable minus some aileron limits and having my stall speed a bit higher but I managed to bring it home and land safely.

About a year ago I was experiencing the same issues with the C101 which was later patched to correct the issue.

Sadly, I forgot to save my trackfile.  I was too busy with Fraps filming my superior pilot skills...

 

ED has misinterpreted the stores G limits, applying the failure to the wings instead of to the stores pylon. Plus the weird lowering of the failure limit at speed makes it even worse.

Its wrong and its obvious to anyone who actually understands the pylon limits. 
 

 

  • Like 1

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a few more, no wind, no turbulens, just default ME.

- Loaded with 4x Mk82 and full internal fuel (spawned in air), 600 kts in a shallow dive to just above SL, gentle pull letting the G build up over a few sec period, 9G wing break.
- Same but with a 275 gal centerline added, also full, around 8.5G for a wing break.
Now if I just yank the stick quickly into my lap, then the wings come of much much sooner / easier.

Isnt that more less the same with the F-16 now? Doesnt seem that far fetched to me, when pulling G with a 7 tonnes plane or a 11 tonnes plane. Just need to handle with some care now when loaded, pay attention to the G meter, and not just yank the stick.

 

But thats just me.

 


Edited by Knock-Knock

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| Windows 11 | i5-12400 | 64Gb DDR4 | RTX 3080 | 2x M.2 | 27" 1440p | Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFG Crosswind pedals |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Testing for symmetrical pulls - using the ingame telemetry bar to check peak G -

2 Sidewinders, no other stores, full fuel (6.5G limit per the manual, plus 150% safety - 9.75G) - the wings come off past 11G at speeds below 500kts. Above 500kts they break around 8.5-9.0. There's nothing I've found in the manual suggesting there should be a difference: the limit change is based on fuel load and the turn charts are consistently lined off at 7.33G (for half fuel and two missiles) across the aircraft's entire speed range. Reading is hard and the drop in limit is from 7.33 to 6.5 with fuel above 2200lbs and above M 0.95. In this case it still seems to be a bit easy to break.

2 Sidewinders, no other stores, 2000lbs fuel (7.33G limit per the manual, plus safety - that puts us at 11G) - below 500kts I was able to merrily see-saw the aircraft between +11G/-3G repeatedly. On the fourth cycle I brushed past 12G and on the fifth the wings snapped off at 11. Above 500kts, I was able to reach 11G twice - the wings broke on the second pull. The pilot's flight manual (section V, operational limitations, pg 5-35, fig 5-6; appendix I part 8, pg A8-33) makes no reference to any change in load limit based on airspeed up to the aircraft's maximum speed, for fuel below 2200lbs.

As for the actual consequences, DCS' damage model doesn't really support much consequence for pulling too many G other than breaking important parts off, even if the fuselage in many aircraft would tend to fail before the wings catastrophically liberate themselves. It is what it is. The issue of speed affecting how limits are simulated needs looking at though, it seems a touch strict but overall nowhere near gamebreaking.


Edited by rossmum
my brain is too smooth
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, rossmum said:

Testing for symmetrical pulls - using the ingame telemetry bar to check peak G -

2 Sidewinders, no other stores, full fuel (6.5G limit per the manual, plus 150% safety - 9.75G) - the wings come off past 11G at speeds below 500kts. Above 500kts they break around 8.5-9.0. There's nothing I've found in the manual suggesting there should be a difference: the limit change is based on fuel load and the turn charts are consistently lined off at 7.33G (for half fuel and two missiles) across the aircraft's entire speed range. Reading is hard and the drop in limit is from 7.33 to 6.5 with fuel above 2200lbs and above M 0.95. In this case it still seems to be a bit easy to break.

2 Sidewinders, no other stores, 2000lbs fuel (7.33G limit per the manual, plus safety - that puts us at 11G) - below 500kts I was able to merrily see-saw the aircraft between +11G/-3G repeatedly. On the fourth cycle I brushed past 12G and on the fifth the wings snapped off at 11. Above 500kts, I was able to reach 11G twice - the wings broke on the second pull. The pilot's flight manual (section V, operational limitations, pg 5-35, fig 5-6; appendix I part 8, pg A8-33) makes no reference to any change in load limit based on airspeed up to the aircraft's maximum speed, for fuel below 2200lbs.

As for the actual consequences, DCS' damage model doesn't really support much consequence for pulling too many G other than breaking important parts off, even if the fuselage in many aircraft would tend to fail before the wings catastrophically liberate themselves. It is what it is. The issue of speed affecting how limits are simulated needs looking at though, it seems a touch strict but overall nowhere near gamebreaking.

 

My question is what magical force lowers the structural strength of the wing above .95 Mach? I think the operational limitation has an aerodynamic reason. The combination of transonic/supersonic flight regime and a specific FUEL number indicate (to me) that it is related to the position of the center of pressure and center of gravity. 

  • Like 1

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

My question is what magical force lowers the structural strength of the wing above .95 Mach? I think the operational limitation has an aerodynamic reason. The combination of transonic/supersonic flight regime and a specific FUEL number indicate (to me) that it is related to the position of the center of pressure and center of gravity. 

It could also be related to where the center of pressure falls on the wing or control surfaces.

Or it might not be the center of pressure, but the detailed pressure distribution.  In transonic flight there can be normal shockwaves in various places, such as on the upper wing surface, and the pressure jumps drastically behind a normal shock. This might cause an unusually high hinge moment on the flaps, for example. 

"Subsonic is below Mach 1, supersonic is up to Mach 5. Above Mach 5 is hypersonic. And reentry from space, well, that's like Mach a lot."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This seriously needs to be looked into.  Attached is a clip from the Cold War server while streaming and in a merge, I barely even pulled on the stick and the wings snapped.  If this was real, no one would pull the stick hard at 500-600 knots because of this, plus you have the feeling of the aircraft and we don't inside a game.

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/AbnegateBoringThymePlanking-FuxJqvolNlo2lnvs

 

Edit: Added a tacview with me on first load into the server and no hard turns.

https://streamable.com/4u9o7n


Edited by F16wannabe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So strange. Is this somehow a online only thing? Are they somehow getting some damage on spawning in maybe. Something is really strange.

I fly this jet offline a lot every day, loaded with bombs (both Mk84, 83, 82 and CBU) or rockets, and I pull plenty of G's shortly after takeoff from Nellis (Range 62 on NTTR), so its fairly heavy. In my attack runs I pull in the region of 6G in the turns, 4-5G in my popup, and 7-8-9G in the pull up - avoiding ground fire, and I do this a lot with various G's. And never have the wings snapped, not once.

Only when I wanted to in the small tests above, have they snapped.

 

Edit: Cant remember if all modules, just some modules, all airfields, all parkings or just some, and if those are online only, or also happens offline. But that is that heavy drop and G breathing with spawning into the jet, that happens - sometimes? Maybe worth paying attention to, in combination with these wingsnaps.


Edited by Knock-Knock

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| Windows 11 | i5-12400 | 64Gb DDR4 | RTX 3080 | 2x M.2 | 27" 1440p | Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFG Crosswind pedals |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to be clear, not trying to prove or disprove if anything is correct or not, just trying to figure out what hell is going on, cause I have yet to see them snap at low G's.
Just did a few more tests, this time with full internal fuel, Mk84, 2x83 and 2x82, 2xAIM-9, so a heavy little lad. Dive on target at Range 62, just shy of 600 kts, 7.5G. Wings still attached. Back up, dive down 600 kts, 8G, snap. Tried with a AIM-9's only, full internal, dive 600 kts, 11G, snap. Did a few of each, same results.

Then went online (fairly strong winds and turbulence), same heavy loadout. 550kts this time at the surface on PG (200 feet), 7.5G, wings still there. 550kts again, 9.5G, snap, as seen in screenshots, most of the loadout went flying and just the tips snapped. Had a heavy breather in this one when I spawned in, but G meter didnt register anything.

Strange this, why it happens so early in some cases.

_9.5G.jpg_9.5Grip.jpg

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| Windows 11 | i5-12400 | 64Gb DDR4 | RTX 3080 | 2x M.2 | 27" 1440p | Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFG Crosswind pedals |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And for the hell of it, just did 10 sets of 4xMk82, 2xAIM-9, full internal. And 10 with the same loadout, but plus 150 gal centerline.

Airstart, diving, 600 kts, start pulling. 8-8.5 consistently for a wing snap.
Then did a few where I was level and banked/pulled. Same 8-8.5G.

Tried a few with just yanking the stick into my lap, but hard to see where the actual snap happens, but appears to be around the same ballpark. The needled usually told 10, but its still adding G after the break.

 

I dunno. There is some other factor playing a part here, for those low G wing snaps.

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| Windows 11 | i5-12400 | 64Gb DDR4 | RTX 3080 | 2x M.2 | 27" 1440p | Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFG Crosswind pedals |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/11/2021 at 5:03 AM, Knock-Knock said:

And for the hell of it, just did 10 sets of 4xMk82, 2xAIM-9, full internal. And 10 with the same loadout, but plus 150 gal centerline.

Airstart, diving, 600 kts, start pulling. 8-8.5 consistently for a wing snap.
Then did a few where I was level and banked/pulled. Same 8-8.5G.

Tried a few with just yanking the stick into my lap, but hard to see where the actual snap happens, but appears to be around the same ballpark. The needled usually told 10, but its still adding G after the break.

 

I dunno. There is some other factor playing a part here, for those low G wing snaps.

Its the asymmetrical G modeling I suspect. I have eliminated almost all wing failures in my daily F-5 flying by introducing a curve of +20 in both pitch and roll and treating the airplane like glass when above 500 knots. However, there is one area where I still experience wing failure and my wingman is experiencing the same thing. In a high speed rate fight. In a rate fight I use high and low yo-yo's. Nothing spectacular, just gentle out of plane maneuvers to manage closure and angle properly, basic BFM. The wings break somewhere between 90 and 120 degrees into these maneuvers when resetting the lift vector (rolling the airplane). In a steady state high G, high speed maneuver, if you even breath on the aileron, the wing comes off. If you are flying without a curve in your aileron (As I used to before this change) you can break the wings off during a straight pull because it is almost impossible to not introduce some aileron without a major curve in the roll axis. 

This is why I wrote this report

 

  • Like 2

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Any update on this from ED? Correct as is, due to be fixed or fine tuned?

Ryzen 5800x@5Ghz | 96gb DDR4 3200Mhz | Asus Rx6800xt TUF OC | 500Gb OS SSD + 1TB Gaming SSD | Asus VG27AQ | Trackhat clip | VPC WarBRD base | Thrustmaster stick and throttle (Deltasim minijoystick mod).

 

F14 | F16 | AJS37 | F5 | Av8b | FC3 | Mig21 | FW190D9 | Huey

 

Been playing DCS from Flanker 2.0 to present 😄

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • ED Team
On 11/10/2021 at 6:46 PM, F16wannabe said:

This seriously needs to be looked into.  Attached is a clip from the Cold War server while streaming and in a merge, I barely even pulled on the stick and the wings snapped.  If this was real, no one would pull the stick hard at 500-600 knots because of this, plus you have the feeling of the aircraft and we don't inside a game.

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/AbnegateBoringThymePlanking-FuxJqvolNlo2lnvs

 

Edit: Added a tacview with me on first load into the server and no hard turns.

https://streamable.com/4u9o7n

 

Can you tell me load out, fuel, etc to make sure I am testing similar to what you experienced? The synchronized wing snapping between you and your wingman is disturbing.

Maybe its a weird MP desync of some sort. I will run it by our MP Testers as well.

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
On 11/11/2021 at 1:57 AM, Knock-Knock said:

Just to be clear, not trying to prove or disprove if anything is correct or not, just trying to figure out what hell is going on, cause I have yet to see them snap at low G's.
Just did a few more tests, this time with full internal fuel, Mk84, 2x83 and 2x82, 2xAIM-9, so a heavy little lad. Dive on target at Range 62, just shy of 600 kts, 7.5G. Wings still attached. Back up, dive down 600 kts, 8G, snap. Tried with a AIM-9's only, full internal, dive 600 kts, 11G, snap. Did a few of each, same results.

Then went online (fairly strong winds and turbulence), same heavy loadout. 550kts this time at the surface on PG (200 feet), 7.5G, wings still there. 550kts again, 9.5G, snap, as seen in screenshots, most of the loadout went flying and just the tips snapped. Had a heavy breather in this one when I spawned in, but G meter didnt register anything.

Strange this, why it happens so early in some cases.

 

When you say you pulled 7.5 Gs and no snap then went to 9.5 Gs, you mean in the same flight I assume? Because the wings do 'break down' to repeated over stress. If you have tracks that would be appreciated. 

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

When you say you pulled 7.5 Gs and no snap then went to 9.5 Gs, you mean in the same flight I assume? Because the wings do 'break down' to repeated over stress. If you have tracks that would be appreciated. 

Correct. I dont. 

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| Windows 11 | i5-12400 | 64Gb DDR4 | RTX 3080 | 2x M.2 | 27" 1440p | Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFG Crosswind pedals |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/7/2021 at 12:26 PM, Basher54321 said:

Ran it around in free flight clean and for whatever reason maybe luck seems pretty good to me - in the transonic region at low alts breaking 11G - 12.5G - but at lower speeds cannot generate the Gs for this to be any concern. 

There is no point referencing reality when reality involves flying under 7.33G which is the max G limit clean. It sounds like DCS gamers have got used to ignoring limits and flying it like an arcade game. (Any perceived structural margin is NOT your limit!!)

Relax the stick / changing the pitch curves might help. Maybe a G indicator option on screen all the time might help.

 

The T-38 was built to an initial 15000 hour lifetime and 7.33G at 50% fuel and has clearly been used as intended if it is still in use today - also going through various structure upgrade programs. https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/612443/maintainers-extend-life-of-t-38-talon/.

The F-5E is a different aircraft with an initial 8000 hour lifetime and built to 7.33G at 100% internal fuel.

 

 

 

 

Just to add to your point, real world pilots don't just read a sim manual, but go through thorough training and selection, to make sure they adhere to those regulations about sticking to imposed G limits and won't kill themselves by ignoring the rules. Those online gamers complaining about the wings breaking off should be happy they experience it in the sim and not in real life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LowRider88 said:

Just to add to your point, real world pilots don't just read a sim manual, but go through thorough training and selection, to make sure they adhere to those regulations about sticking to imposed G limits and won't kill themselves by ignoring the rules. Those online gamers complaining about the wings breaking off should be happy they experience it in the sim and not in real life.

Its interesting that you like to harp on this opinion. Several of my sources are real world, as in guys who currently fly or in the past have flown high performance tactical aircraft. My little snippet about being afraid of the airplane comes directly from the mouth of an active duty fighter pilot expressing his dismay regarding the current structural failure modeling of the F-5. 
 

Also, 10 G’s doesn’t kill unless it is sustained long enough to cause brain death due to hypoxia. Nothing jet powered can sustain 10 G’s long enough to kill you. 9 G break turns are common in modern fighters. 

It is also a bit amusing that you think fighter pilots are sticklers for adhering to the published limits  

 

  • Like 2

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Its interesting that you like to harp on this opinion. Several of my sources are real world, as in guys who currently fly or in the past have flown high performance tactical aircraft. My little snippet about being afraid of the airplane comes directly from the mouth of an active duty fighter pilot expressing his dismay regarding the current structural failure modeling of the F-5. 
 

Also, 10 G’s doesn’t kill unless it is sustained long enough to cause brain death due to hypoxia. Nothing jet powered can sustain 10 G’s long enough to kill you. 9 G break turns are common in modern fighters. 

It is also a bit amusing that you think fighter pilots are sticklers for adhering to the published limits  

 

You provide a lot of anecdotes.  Who are these guys?  Can they provide better examples than a feeling?  

Are they using force feedback?  Are they getting the sensations that trigger their precautions they get in real flight?

Or are they also moving the stick with their pinkies while totally disengaged from the action, adjusting their gaming gear as you did?  

What are the high performance planes they have flown?  4th gen or this F-5?

Have your fighter pilot friends pulled 10 Gs in real life?

What's so amusingly about that.  Sure, some break the rules.  And then some die.  Some may not die if they are lucky.

I am not the one harping here, you are the one who has opened several bug reports for the same complaints.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LowRider88 said:

Have your fighter pilot friends pulled 10 Gs in real life?

There is a very good number of 10g+ over-g's in fighters, a few with 12g - none of this is anecdotes, it's part of the USAFs g-tolerance research..   No, you probably couldn't do more than 10 in an F-5, that is pretty much close to or at the ultimate structural limits.  I don't know why you say that 10g kills pilots; it doesn't.  It's more dangerous than 9g from the GLOC perspective, but it's not some sort of instadeath.

The rules get broken and few die.  Not 'some die' and 'some live' as if it was some sort of unknowable number, most of the time things are ok (not necessarily fine) but breaking rules will end in punishment depending on circumstances.


Edited by GGTharos
  • Like 2

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...