For the wishlist: Jester A2A tweaks

[HWasp]

I agree 100%, that jester needs improvements in this regard, but I don’t think, that more different menu options are enough. Basic radar commands must all be bindable imo, otherwise it just takes way too long to manage.

If I’m flying a single seater in DCS like the F-15 or F-18, I consider around 3 - 5 seconds as an acceptable time between receiving information about a new target somewhere, and pointing my radar at it and getting a lock… I think right now not even an expert pianist could do things quick enough through to jester menu to even come close to the single seater jets.

The other issue with this is, that I would need to scan with my radar, even when there is DL support (anyone who flies MP knows that people who rely on DL only usually don’t live long)

All in all I think, that there needs to be bindable commands to move the radar in both axis. The proposed new menu settings could help a lot for example, if there would be a way to toggle between them quickly without opening the menu (elevation UP/DOWN 1 notch command bindable for example)

[draconus]

18 minutes ago, HWasp said:

Basic radar commands must all be bindable imo

unrealistic

[HWasp]

9 minutes ago, draconus said:

unrealistic

Ok, so in what way is that less realistic, than the current system, where you need to micromanage everything through a pop-up menu?

 

[draconus]

12 minutes ago, HWasp said:

Ok, so in what way is that less realistic, than the current system, where you need to micromanage everything through a pop-up menu?

Pop-up is just one of the options. Currently you can use it with available bindings and headtracking or no menu with voice commands. Later all Jester command will be bindable.

[QuiGon]

11 hours ago, TLTeo said:

Maybe TWS: Auto is centering the scan on the low bandit for whatever reason?

Negative, that would be reflected by the elevation numbers on the left side of the TID.

[HWasp]

8 minutes ago, draconus said:

Pop-up is just one of the options. Currently you can use it with available bindings and headtracking or no menu with voice commands. Later all Jester command will be bindable.

I'll admit, I have never tried voice commads, but I think, that if one cant manage radar elevation quickly and efficiently, (a press of a button quickly I mean), that is a huge disadvantage compared to the other single seat modules, and extremely annoying after some time.

 

 

[draconus]

6 minutes ago, HWasp said:

I'll admit, I have never tried voice commads, but I think, that if one cant manage radar elevation quickly and efficiently, (a press of a button quickly I mean), that is a huge disadvantage compared to the other single seat modules, and extremely annoying after some time.

I never felt that way and heard that some feel it even the other way around. In BVR with good SA there's enough time to decide and choose from the options. Within 15nm you use pilot radar modes. If you don't find Jester capable enough you'll need a human RIO to get things done faster and as real as possible.

[HWasp]

8 minutes ago, draconus said:

I never felt that way and heard that some feel it even the other way around. In BVR with good SA there's enough time to decide and choose from the options. Within 15nm you use pilot radar modes. If you don't find Jester capable enough you'll need a human RIO to get things done faster and as real as possible.

I respect your opinion, and it might be suitable in the scenarios you and other people you mention might enjoy, but in more dynamic scenarios, against human opponents, it is very different.

You mentioned good SA, but you cannot build good SA if you can't control your radar elevation efficiently and jester is not scanning on it's own. Scanning with the radar is essential. 

Sure, the real answer is having a human rio, but we are talking about jester, so that is kind of off topic imo.

[RPY Variable]

17 hours ago, draconus said:

unrealistic

I can argue that having bindable commands it more realistic than using the Jester Menu. Because if it is bindable, I can bind it to a "Voice Attack" (https://voiceattack.com/) command and ask thing to Jester like if it was a human RIO.

For example, I think we need a bindable "Jettison Drop Tanks" command. Because, I can't bind that to a voice attack command because the Jester menu is dynamic, and it changes depending on there situation. It has way more sense just saying "Jester, jettison drop tanks" than start looking for that on the Jester menu, and specially on a jettison situation.

Edited November 18, 2021 by RPY Variable

[RPY Variable]

16 hours ago, HWasp said:

I'll admit, I have never tried voice commads, but I think, that if one cant manage radar elevation quickly and efficiently, (a press of a button quickly I mean), that is a huge disadvantage compared to the other single seat modules, and extremely annoying after some time.

 

 

Then the problem would be the Jester reaction time, not the time I need to spend in order to ask something to jester. Jester, do this, whenever you can, but do it and then I focus on something else, start a trip on the Jester menu, can be annoying on some situations.

On Voice Atack... is works flawlessly, the thing is that it is limited to only Jester bindings.

Edited November 18, 2021 by RPY Variable

[RPY Variable]

18 hours ago, HWasp said:

I agree 100%, that jester needs improvements in this regard, but I don’t think, that more different menu options are enough. Basic radar commands must all be bindable imo, otherwise it just takes way too long to manage.

I agree with this. And in my opinion, the problem is not the time that takes to Jester to do something, the problem is the time that takes me to tell Jester to do something.

[_DK_]

2 hours ago, RPY Variable said:

I can argue that having bindable commands it more realistic than using the Jester Menu. Because if it is bindable, I can bind it to a "Voice Attack" (https://voiceattack.com/) command and ask thing to Jester like if it was a human RIO.

For example, I think we need a bindable "Jettison Drop Tanks" command. Because, I can't bind that to a voice attack command because the Jester menu is dynamic, and it changes depending on there situation. It has way more sense just saying "Jester, jettison drop tanks" than start looking for that on the Jester menu, and specially on a jettison situation.

 

 

Completely agree. I understand that when flying with Jester there will be instances where an AI cannot have situational awareness and that's okay but straight out not having a function to command Jester to do something which is a core capability of the Tomcat is very undesirable; ie. slaving the radar to the TCS.

[draconus]

4 hours ago, RPY Variable said:

I can argue that having bindable commands it more realistic than using the Jester Menu. Because if it is bindable, I can bind it to a "Voice Attack" (https://voiceattack.com/) command and ask thing to Jester like if it was a human RIO.

I was refering to direct bindings like moving radar antenna by the pilot. Of course bindings to ask Jester to do it can and will be implemented.

btw: From the short test I've done I could make Jester STT lock DL aircraft down low in front of me without even asking for changing antenna elevation. He just went from EL level to -15° and locked no problem. I guess the same he does with "lock enemy target" and other STT requests. The question stays why the target was depicted as a sensor target (in RPY's case), being out of the cone, while the other one was not and was just DL.

Edited November 18, 2021 by draconus

[draconus]

On 11/18/2021 at 8:20 AM, draconus said:

The question stays why the target was depicted as a sensor target (in RPY's case), being out of the cone, while the other one was not and was just DL.

FYI: I recreated the situation in SP with AI (F-14B @40k vs M-2000C @43k and M-2000C @5k, both at 30nm head-on, AWACS/DL available and connected) and could not reproduce the problem. "Jester lock enemy target ahead" cmd never acquired the low bandit when the radar antenna was set auto/level - always the high one.

@RPY Variable If it happens again you should try to video it again and make a bug report with as much info as possible, what time, what server... etc.

[Hardcard]

In a sim where the rest of modern fighters allow players to properly control radar elevation , azimuth scan + bars, primary target, IFF, etc., tomcat shouldn't be any less (when flying without a human RIO). 

Those controls exist in the RIO seat, we should be able to tell Jester to do essential stuff like setting the desired azimuth scan + bars, cycle TWS targets, perform IFF interrogations, etc.  

Jester AI will never be as good as a human RIO, so the easiest and less painful thing Heatblur could do is to provide the required RIO bindings to pilots, so they can micromanage radar functionality (just like they do in their hornets, vipers, jeffs, etc.).  

Unrealistic? Idk, seems like pilots should be able to tell RIOs what they need, specially when they're messing up,  besides, aren't we tired of Jester issues and the threads they generate?
I'm pretty sure Jester is a pita to develop, seems like an unnecessary torture for devs and players alike.

Making all relevant RIO bindings available to pilots seems like the path of least resistance to solve the most glaring Jester problems. 

As for deciding which RIO bindings should be made available to pilots, the rule of thumb I'd propose is the following:

"If hornet pilots can control this, tomcat pilots should too" (of course, always within AWG-9 limitations, tomcat pilots shouldn't be able to do stuff that RIOs and the AW-9 can't do)

Edited November 24, 2021 by Hardcard

[draconus]

@Hardcard

Devs already spoken on the matter which is they will improve Jester behavior, add more features and all bindings to tell Jester what you want. That you prefer single seater is not fixable though.

[IronMike]

14 hours ago, Hardcard said:

In a sim where the rest of modern fighters allow players to properly control radar elevation , azimuth scan + bars, primary target, IFF, etc., tomcat shouldn't be any less (when flying without a human RIO). 

Those controls exist in the RIO seat, we should be able to tell Jester to do essential stuff like setting the desired azimuth scan + bars, cycle TWS targets, perform IFF interrogations, etc.  

Jester AI will never be as good as a human RIO, so the easiest and less painful thing Heatblur could do is to provide the required RIO bindings to pilots, so they can micromanage radar functionality (just like they do in their hornets, vipers, jeffs, etc.).  

Unrealistic? Idk, seems like pilots should be able to tell RIOs what they need, specially when they're messing up,  besides, aren't we tired of Jester issues and the threads they generate?
I'm pretty sure Jester is a pita to develop, seems like an unnecessary torture for devs and players alike.

Making all relevant RIO bindings available to pilots seems like the path of least resistance to solve the most glaring Jester problems. 

As for deciding which RIO bindings should be made available to pilots, the rule of thumb I'd propose is the following:

"If hornet pilots can control this, tomcat pilots should too" (of course, always within AWG-9 limitations, tomcat pilots shouldn't be able to do stuff that RIOs and the AW-9 can't do)

 

I am sorry to disappoint here, but this will never happen. We will continue to improve JESTER, but if you want to fly an aircraft that has a single-seat philosophy, the Tomcat is not it. That is a decision we took before even developing JESTER, and one that we will not overturn.

The whole idea behind the Tomcat and multicrew aircraft is to split tasks. You as the pilot should not concern yourself with the work a RIO does. So, if you say "JESTER doesnt sort well enough" - for example - then we do take such imput seriously, but will work on developing his ability to do that, rather than to say, yeah screw the whole idea behind the Tomcat and JESTER and let the pilot do it.

JESTER is likewise not meant to replace a human RIO, and will always have limitations. In that, he is still capable enough. Trust me, if I fly online with JESTER, everyone around me suffers, a lot. I do not say this to brag, and lately I do not even fly as much as I used to, but it still suffices to obliterate in even 1 vs 4 scenarios. Just recently I flew on the 104th, doing a2g, with LANTIRN, getting 3 bombs on target, killing 2 hostile F16s, 1 hostile F14, entered a flat spin, recovered, and put the last bomb on target, which was hilarious fun. And I am rusty as hell in online play. But I do understand both the AWG-9, tactics and JESTER's capabilities, so that I can assure you: if you accept your role and work within these limits, you can still be the king of the block.

However, with a human RIO, you really get the whole package of what the Tomcat is meant to deliver in online flight combat simulation. Multicrew, in the Tomcat, is our greatest achievement. And I know, it can be tough to find a RIO sometimes. My answer to that is - especially if you crave to do RIO tasks so much: be the RIO yourself. But folks often want both, and it just isn't possible to both eat the cake and keep it at the same time. However, if you yourself offer to be the RIO, a) there are more available RIOs, and b) pilots whom you RIO for, will be more likely to return you the favor. Somehow though everyone thinks being the pilot is cooler, yet they want to make RIO decisions all the time. So I ask politely: then why not be the RIO yourself? Try it, it is great fun.

But making RIO inputs available to the pilot is not the answer, and the discussion is moot, if I may say so, as we simply will never do it. Thank you for your kind understanding.

Edited November 25, 2021 by IronMike

[IronMike]

As a general (quick) reply to some of the inputs here, for which I thank you all:

- the current quick elevations are bogus, and need to be changed.
- next launch is difficult, and we are currently split on whether we want to offer it or not.
- we do not want you to micromanage him. in that sense our improvements will go away from that, not pile on top of it.
- we want him to become more pro-active in his radar work.
- RWS/TWS resets are very much something we want to see as well, and currently missing. The player still needs an option to "reset all" - for quality of life if nothing else.
- it already becomes problematic to have stuff like target size, aspect switch etc: instead of having you micromanage more here, it is better to teach JESTER to select what is best selected according to the situation.
- the current lessons learned when doing LANTIRN, will be lessons applied for his air to air work as well.
- what we see after the LANTIRN release, is that folks want to dictate JESTER too much, he is often more clever than what folks credit him for
- he often gets judged under specific circumstances that a) are not the best outlook for a single Tomcat and b) not exactly what he was developed for - think: "me alone against 50 guys," etc... Even with a human RIO in some of the feedback I have seen (not necessarily in this thread), turning around would have been the better option, or in even other words: sometimes expectations are too high.
- where expectations are not too high, we very much see the limitations that can be adjusted, but again for him, not for the player, that is: less micromanagement and more cleverness with JESTER
- all that said: he will always be a limited means in comparison of a human RIO.
- many of you seem to like RIO tasks a lot: why not be the RIO more often? This would both a) sooth your craving and b) help with the situation of "a human RIO is difficult to find"

Thank you again for all the great input.

Edited November 25, 2021 by IronMike

[RPY Variable]

You are talking about a philosophical difference of telling "Jester, push this button" and me directly binding the button. At the end of the day is the same, but I can deal with that. At least please make as much as jester commands bindings as possible, so we are able to use them via voice attack (work flawlessly), or keyboard so we don't have to deal with the Jester menu, trying to navigate through the menus. A "Jester, jettison drop tanks", would be my top one priority jester command. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by RPY Variable

[IronMike]

20 minutes ago, RPY Variable said:

You are talking about a philosophical difference of telling "Jester, push this button" and me directly binding the button. At the end of the day is the same, but I can deal with that. At least please make as much as jester commands bindings as possible, so we are able to use them via voice attack (work flawlessly), or keyboard so we don't have to deal with the Jester menu, trying to navigate through the menus. A "Jester, jettison drop tanks", would be my top one priority jester command. 

 

You misunderstood. We do not want you to tell JESTER "push this button". We want to teach him when to push it best instead.

Adding all JESTER commands to keybinds (minus exceptions where it is not feasible), is something we already promised.

Again, a pilot should not have any business telling a RIO what to push and what not to push. If you want to do that, be the RIO. So, wherever that is needed, it needs to become less, not more... In other words: JESTER's shortcomings are not where you would need another "push this button command", but actually where you already have it. This is where we want to improve above all. Of course to achieve that successfully, we also need to teach him new stuff that you would consider as "missing commands" for now. Which we plan on doing. 

End of the day, being a Tomcat pilot can be boring, unless you concentrate on hoaning your pilot skills. Flying well. Flying precisely. Being a great chauffeur if you like. Not in hoaning your trigger-pulling skills. That is the skill a RIO should hoan. Flying, is the pilot's job. JESTER needs to improve to underline that even more.

Edited November 25, 2021 by IronMike

[MAXsenna]

You are talking about a philosophical difference of telling "Jester, push this button" and me directly binding the button. At the end of the day is the same, but I can deal with that. At least please make as much as jester commands bindings as possible, so we are able to use them via voice attack (work flawlessly), or keyboard so we don't have to deal with the Jester menu, trying to navigate through the menus. A "Jester, jettison drop tanks", would be my top one priority jester command. 

Have you considered VAICOMPRO plugin for VA?
It was just updated with the LANTERN and other commands. No need to make your own VA profiles.
Beware thoug, it disables the Jester wheel.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[RPY Variable]

10 minutes ago, IronMike said:

You misunderstood. We do not want you to tell JESTER "push this button". We want to teach him when to push it best instead.

Jester radar silent, target size, jettison droptanks, etc...But again, I'm not saying it is a problem for me. 

 

15 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Adding all JESTER commands to keybinds (minus exceptions where it is not feasible), is something we already promised.

I didn't knew that. That's grate news. That would resolve all my Jester concerns.  Thanks

 

13 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Have you considered VAICOMPRO plugin for VA?
It was just updated with the LANTERN and other commands. No need to make your own VA profiles.
Beware thoug, it disables the Jester wheel.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

I tried it and didn't like it. And personally, I don't like adding a new software every time a use DCS... A little more Jester bindings and Voice Attack is all I need.

[IronMike]

7 minutes ago, RPY Variable said:

Jester radar silent, target size, jettison droptanks, etc...But again, I'm not saying it is a problem for me.
 

Those already exist? Or you mean adding them as keybinds? If the latter, absolutely. But keybinds for JESTER unfortunately is something we'd like you to be patient with, as doing them now, and having to redo them altogether again after we are done with the bulk of the improvements would mean a massive headache for us. But yes, these things need to be easily accessible ofc.

PS: you should never jettison droptanks, tsk. You don't own that droptank, the taxplayer does! Indeed, this wasn't the case in the fleet. They had so little droptanks, that if you would do that, you sometimes wouldn't get a replacement for the remainder of the cruise. Not once have I jettisoned my tanks, not even in a merge. Well, once I did it, to test it, if it worked, haha.

PPS: taxplayer... it is a typo that fits for once and I shall leave it like that Next module: DCS: Congress, lol.

Edited November 25, 2021 by IronMike

[MAXsenna]

I tried it and didn't like it. And personally, I don't like adding a new software every time a use DCS... A little more Jester bindings and Voice Attack is all I need.

Fair enough!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Noctrach]

15 hours ago, IronMike said:

You misunderstood. We do not want you to tell JESTER "push this button". We want to teach him when to push it best instead.

Adding all JESTER commands to keybinds (minus exceptions where it is not feasible), is something we already promised.

Again, a pilot should not have any business telling a RIO what to push and what not to push. If you want to do that, be the RIO. So, wherever that is needed, it needs to become less, not more... In other words: JESTER's shortcomings are not where you would need another "push this button command", but actually where you already have it. This is where we want to improve above all. Of course to achieve that successfully, we also need to teach him new stuff that you would consider as "missing commands" for now. Which we plan on doing. 

End of the day, being a Tomcat pilot can be boring, unless you concentrate on hoaning your pilot skills. Flying well. Flying precisely. Being a great chauffeur if you like. Not in hoaning your trigger-pulling skills. That is the skill a RIO should hoan. Flying, is the pilot's job. JESTER needs to improve to underline that even more.

 

In principle I like this direction, but isn't it little bit too much wishful thinking?

The problems I encounter using Jester revolve squarely around those aspects that you'd normally be talking about with your human RIO: target sorting in complex environments. Hence the focus on two items:

1. Next target functionality
2. Ability to "micro-manage" scan granularity.

Imagine the following scenarios:

1. Multiple bogeys but limited, scattered bandits.
2. Multiple bandits of different type (two-ship MiG-31 at 50k for 50 but singleton F-5 at 40k for 30)
3. Two-ship of solo F-14 pilots trying to sort any 2vX encounter.

Jester would need a significant level of heuristic decisionmaking to correctly identify what's expected. In these cases there would not even be any other option than going STT and severely diminishing situational awareness.

Hence, Next Target would solve all three of these. Managing this through narrowing the scan width and bars would at least help you isolate to make Jester's decision-making significantly less complex (and therefore less error-prone, as well as easier to implement?).

I don't see this being fixed any other way, because not even a human RIO would be able to infer what do to in these situations without having a pre-briefed gameplan or some in-flight chatter. Conversely, once a human is briefed on the ROE and threat environment, these scenarios become extremely trivial.

While I agree that the RIO drives the intercept and the pilot flies the intercept, Jester cannot be briefed on any situation that slightly deviates from the norm, so he'll need a little help from us.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Noctrach