F14 DLC after Update

[Breno Phoenix]

Hey fellow tomcatters, after the patch that came out on the 20th, The DLC has changed drastically, now, I feel like there is a huge delay in relation to Adding DLC drag and the plane actually increasing descent rate, a good amount of delay when compared to how it was before. Also, weirdly, now DLC forward makes the plane pitch up a lot, has just been very weird and unusual for me, so i`m struggling to adapt to the new DLC mechanics, I used to rely on it a lot and now it just feels completely useless, anyone also noticed that and managed to tame it already?

[BreaKKer]

Had the same thing happen to me. You just need to change how you fly with DLC. 

[Copprhead]

I'm unsure if I should push the stick slightly forward to counter the upward pitch or just ignore it until it eventually return to the trimmed AOA.

Or maybe even correct by changing the trim? But wouldn't that mean that I need to change trim again after releasing DLC?

Edited October 23, 2021 by Copprhead

[Tulkas]

If you follow the NATOPS, you should no rely so much on the DLC, instead correct the glideslope with power adjustments. You should reserve the DLC for the last moment, in close at the ramp to correct a rising ball with a couple of bangs.

[Airhunter]

Well, at least on field landings DLC is/was used quite liberaly. Doesn't seem to be much of a pitch up or problem with it.

And some F-14B stick footage + DLC use.

 

[captain_dalan]

As i never used the DLC in discrete clicks but in continuous "as needed" intervals that i applied on intuitive basis, i didn't notice this change yet. It should be noted though, i've only captured 3 times since the update and had one bolter (more of a touch and go really) because my hook was up. All on the Forestall. I found the the groove dirty behavior changed though, both how she flies and how she responds to the burble.  

[Airhunter]

3 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

I found the the groove dirty behavior changed though, both how she flies and how she responds to the burble.  

Definitely, I find myself having to re-learn a lot of habits - had no problem flying on speed and doing turns in the groove prior to this patch, as well as with DLC. I also found the engine margin between to little and too much power in the groove to be a lot smaller. Once you add a little too much power to catch a sink you basically wont be able to recover even with full DLC and almost going idle I found (and yes, speed brake etc. all out as it should).

Edited October 23, 2021 by Airhunter

[EnDSchultz]

Yeah, I've found the burble to be very brutal (especially since my HOTAS is partially broken and I don't have anything to bind the DLC rocker to so I'm flying power only). It seems like I need to precog the sink and add the exact amount of power before it even happens. Get it slightly wrong in that first preemptive power change and it's already too late; I either slam into the deck or float right over the wires no matter how much I jockey the power levers.

But that said, I still assume it's mostly my own failing, and I would just never cut it as a naval aviator. 

[Nealius]

On 10/23/2021 at 3:46 PM, Tulkas said:

If you follow the NATOPS, you should no rely so much on the DLC, instead correct the glideslope with power adjustments. You should reserve the DLC for the last moment, in close at the ramp to correct a rising ball with a couple of bangs.

According to NATOPS DLC should affect descent rate without affecting AoA, so the pitch up moment mentioned is a bit odd. Unless it's pitching up to maintain AoA?

[Tulkas]

Well, depends when you extend the DLC. I’m not using the Beta at the moment so I’m not able to test but NATOPS clearly warns that DLC is optimized for on speed AoA and deploying at higher speed can produce significative pitch changes. Also deploying the DLC before the flaps are fully deployed can produce high pitch rates. Also retracting flaps before retracting the DLC.

 

Sometime ago I made a video about the CASE I, I used a document by Victory205 and the NATOPS. Regretfully for most of you is in Spanish but if you go to 10:39 you can see a screenshot from the NATOPS regarding pitch changes deploying the DLC.

 

 

[Copprhead]

1 hour ago, Tulkas said:

Well, depends when you extend the DLC. I’m not using the Beta at the moment so I’m not able to test but NATOPS clearly warns that DLC is optimized for on speed AoA and deploying at higher speed can produce significative pitch changes. Also deploying the DLC before the flaps are fully deployed can produce high pitch rates. Also retracting flaps before retracting the DLC.

 

Of course we are talking about the use of DLC with flaps full down and on speed. 

If real Tomcat pilots @Victory205 say it's the correct behavior I'm totally fine with it. Just tell us how we should react to it 

[Turkey_Baster]

If its accurate, I can learn to work with it. It's still frustrating when you achieve a satisfying level of competence flying the airplane, only to have it change and become difficult again. 

The original Burble was extreme and very difficult to manage and they refined it. I have a feeling that this will be the case here too. The A model in particular behaves exceptionally different on speed than it did a week ago. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Turkey_Baster

[fat creason]

We're going to remove the pitch up from the early portion of the flap deploy (including man flaps) as well as tweak the spoiler pitch moment in the next hotfix. Those are both causing too many issues at the moment.

Edited October 25, 2021 by fat creason

[sLYFa]

Will speedbrake-induced trim shift make a comeback at some point? 

[fat creason]

1 minute ago, sLYFa said:

Will speedbrake-induced trim shift make a comeback at some point? 

Maybe in the distant future, very low priority at this point.

[Lt_Jaeger]

19 minutes ago, fat creason said:

We're going to remove the pitch up from the early portion of the flap deploy (including man flaps) as well as tweak the spoiler pitch moment in the next hotfix. Those are both causing too many issues at the moment.

 

To many issues for us armchair pilots, or is it messing up the flight model realism? 

[sLYFa]

4 minutes ago, fat creason said:

Maybe in the distant future, very low priority at this point.

Thanks for the reply. I'm just curious since with the revised speedbrake I thought the pitch trim would 'naturally' come back to make the overall behaviour accurate. 

[Airhunter]

Good to hear. What's the overall ETA on a "final" FM? What is there left to do apart from performance and pitch moment tweaks etc? Having to constantly re-learn and adapt to changes gets old after 2 years. 

[fat creason]

It'll be done when @Victory205and myself are happy with it. No timeline. The stuff we're adjusting isn't in the manuals or in the NASA data so it just takes time to get right. We'll try to minimize the number of times things change in the future but our primary concern isn't the amount of "re-learning" people have to do. The F-14 doesn't have the luxury of a FBW system like the F/A-18 or the F-16 which keeps things in an FM "safe space" and masks practically all FM changes besides performance. We're running "open loop" so to speak...the level of difficulty is higher.

Edited October 25, 2021 by fat creason

[Turkey_Baster]

@fat creason

While it is frustrating to relearn things, I'm still grateful for what you and Heatblur have recreated here. I'd rather it be accurate than easy. 

Thanks for all you do. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Turkey_Baster

[Airhunter]

13 minutes ago, Turkey_Baster said:

@fat creason

While it is frustrating to relearn things, I'm still grateful for what you and Heatblur have recreated here. I'd rather it be accurate than easy. 

Thanks for all you do. 

 

No doubt. If the end goal is more accuracy and if the SME's are more happy with it then that is really ideal. And it's not so much re-learning but adapting your muscle memory to the minutia - as someone who basically flew the DCS Tomcat since day 1 and during all FM iterations it is quite noticeable as you expect stuff like DLC, power and flaps etc. to cause a certain effect on the plane - best example I can think of is DLC, where in the past on a field landing you could stay perfectly on speed and just use DLC for the aimpoint and pretty much bring it down like on rails and on the white marks quite easily. 

[Thundercat710]

Yeah I'm curious to see if the if the pitch change when using DLC is correct or what. A lot different now!

[Victory205]

Here’s a novel thought. If the nose it pitching up when you make DLC inputs, then don’t let the nose move when you make DLC inputs.

Don’t know how many times it’s been repeated, not to mention that it’s covered in detail in the NATOPS carrier ops verbiage, as to what and how DLC should be used.

There are cleanup items that have already been inputted for the next hotfix. One input impacts many others and requires additional tuning. It’s a trivial matter, all things considered. The pilot ultimately puts the aircraft where it needs to be.

We also practiced no DLC/No Speedbrake passes. Learn to control rate of descent with power or you are going to struggle mightily.

Have any of you tried a single engine landing at the ship or ashore?

[Turkey_Baster]

@Victory205

How often did pilots use Auto-Throttle on the Tomcat?

If power corrections are so critical for glideslope, especially in CV landings (LSO literally calls it) I would assume most pilots didn't use it at all?

Was there a time when it was required? 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Turkey_Baster

[Victory205]

Think we had one guy that used them at night, can’t think of anyone who used autothrottles in the daytime. Different technique, rolling wings level from the approach turn didn’t work very well, they required a lot of nose movement that affected the hook to eye and so forth. The optical glide path gets very narrow with proximity to the lens.

Everyone used autothrottles from time to time in the night pattern for workload relief, ie, while task saturated doing something else. Very little autopilot use as well, unless on cross country, holding in martial, capping at night, etc. 

Understand, the glide slope is flown with power, in all jets. AOA is constant, requiring little nudges on the stick to keep it onspeed, especially with power changes since the nose pitches with power changes in the F14.