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A couple of questions after 1 year away from DCS


hein22

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Hello everyone. I havent been playing dcs this year as I was doing some flying oversea but now I'm at home again and willing to play dcs.

There was a lot of work put on the hornet and many things have changed. If you allow me I'd like to make some quick questions (maybe one of them will be quite large) to see how the F18 is doing now.

  1. What is the current state in the implementation of the INS? Do we have degradation simulated like the Mirage?
  2. Does the stored heading always work regardless if the aircraft was las shut down with a full gyro alignment and no movement after? Is there any situation when it won't work in DCS?
  3. What kind of INS position update features do we have implemented now?
  4. About datalink, I know there are many classified stuff and I dont want to break any rules, but, when it comes to the HMD datalink airborne symbols I noticed that the extrapolation is very well simulated, but the 12 seconds update rate the whole DCS MIDS is based on makes it useless when a PPLI contact moves and you end up looking to any place but the correct one until 12 seconds (it it moved right after the last update). Maybe @Pieterras or @IvanK can help me understand if IRL it is also that slow. I remember Mover once said in youtube that 12 seconds is absurd in a combat environment but he would not go into details. Though there were documents that somehow stated that 12 seconds was actually correct so I'm lost in this department.
  5. There was a bug when aligning the INS in a carrier that ED was working on. Do you know if it is still an issue? I got lost in the forums and cannot find the thread.

 

Thanks and appreciate any help!

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1. Pretty good, POS/INS will drift in non-GPS scenarios, and POS/AINS will stay coupled. Knowing when to use IFA on the INS knob matters.

2. AFAIK the STOR HDG option always works currently.

3. INS UPDT functions barely, and not according to procedure (doesn't utilize sensor data to make a positional delta). Only process I use it for is as a visual fix on a known position or post-flight fix in non-GPS scenarios.

4. No idea.

5. Should be fine AFAIK.


Edited by Tholozor
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1 hour ago, Tholozor said:

1. Pretty good, POS/INS will drift in non-GPS scenarios, and POS/AINS will stay coupled. Knowing when to use IFA on the INS knob matters.

2. AFAIK the STOR HDG option always works currently.

3. INS UPDT functions barely, and not according to procedure (doesn't utilize sensor data to make a positional delta). Only process I use it for is as a visual fix on a known position or post-flight fix in non-GPS scenarios.

4. No idea.

5. Should be fine AFAIK.

 

Thank you!

About the position update, is there some place where I can read about those procedures? I think the manual doesn't have anything about it.

The one you use, how is it done?

 

 

Thanks.

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The actual procedures are listed in the NATOPS section 24.2.11 (any reference to 'NAV DSG' for older OFPs is the same as 'WPDSG' in newer ones, e.g. Rhino NATOPS).

The 'visual' fix I do uses DSG on a waypoint I designate as TGT. It'll adjust the aircraft position to the TGT position (the real DSG process doesn't behave this way). I normally update my waypoint 0 after a sortie to where I'm parked and update (can be any waypoint though).

You can also successfully use the TACAN update method, as long as the station is programmed into the MC, but it's not as accurate. Useful in a pinch though.

Basically go HSI -> UPDT (only available if not in POS/AINS) -> DSG (with a designation present) -> ACPT or REJ.


Edited by Tholozor

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9 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

The actual procedures are listed in the NATOPS (24.2.11).

The 'visual' fix I do uses DSG on a waypoint I designate as TGT. It'll adjust the aircraft position to the TGT position (the real DSG process doesn't behave this way). I normally update my waypoint 0 after a sortie to where I'm parked and update (can be any waypoint though).

Basically go HSI -> UPDT (only available if not in POS/AINS) -> DSG (with a designation present) -> ACPT or REJ.

 

I think the TCN update also works, I need investigate further. Have you tried?

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Just now, hein22 said:

I think the TCN update also works, I need investigate further. Have you tried?

Haha yea, I literally just edited my last post with that as you replied.

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VFA-136 (c.2007): https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3305981/
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6 hours ago, Tholozor said:

The actual procedures are listed in the NATOPS section 24.2.11 (any reference to 'NAV DSG' for older OFPs is the same as 'WPDSG' in newer ones, e.g. Rhino NATOPS).

The 'visual' fix I do uses DSG on a waypoint I designate as TGT. It'll adjust the aircraft position to the TGT position (the real DSG process doesn't behave this way). I normally update my waypoint 0 after a sortie to where I'm parked and update (can be any waypoint though).

You can also successfully use the TACAN update method, as long as the station is programmed into the MC, but it's not as accurate. Useful in a pinch though.

Basically go HSI -> UPDT (only available if not in POS/AINS) -> DSG (with a designation present) -> ACPT or REJ.

 

So how does the TGT update work? Do you need to overfly the waypoint you designate? How does the MC know where you really are just by designating a wpt?

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1 hour ago, hein22 said:

So how does the TGT update work? Do you need to overfly the waypoint you designate? How does the MC know where you really are just by designating a wpt?

I'll preface this by saying this is not how the DSG process is supposed to work according to the NATOPS.

You don't fly over the waypoint as displayed to you, you fly over the actual position the waypoint is supposed to represent (hence being more of a visual fix than a proper DSG fix using onboard sensors). Say you set up a waypoint in the jet as an easily identifiable reference, like a hilltop or a bridge. The coordinates for that waypoint in the aircraft are fixed, even if the INS drifts and the presented position of the waypoint is incorrect. Once you fly over the reference point, you accept the update and the aircraft's position is updated to the position of the designated waypoint according to the coordinates in the computer, so timing is key.

Here's an example you can try in the editor. Let's say you're on Caucasus at Batumi parked on the ground, in POS/INS mode so you have access to the UPDT functions. Make a waypoint at Tbilisi and designate it. Perform a DSG update and when you hit ACPT, the jet will now think it's located at the position of the designated waypoint at Tbilisi, even though you're physically at Batumi. If your waypoint 0 is still set at your parking position, designate it, and perform a DSG on that, and the jet should think you're back where you started.


Edited by Tholozor
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55 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

I'll preface this by saying this is not how the DSG process is supposed to work according to the NATOPS.

You don't fly over the waypoint as displayed to you, you fly over the actual position the waypoint is supposed to represent (hence being more of a visual fix than a proper DSG fix using onboard sensors). Say you set up a waypoint in the jet as an easily identifiable reference, like a hilltop or a bridge. The coordinates for that waypoint in the aircraft are fixed, even if the INS drifts and the presented position of the waypoint is incorrect. Once you fly over the reference point, you accept the update and the aircraft's position is updated to the position of the designated waypoint according to the coordinates in the computer, so timing is key.

Here's an example you can try in the editor. Let's say you're on Caucasus at Batumi parked on the ground, in POS/INS mode so you have access to the UPDT functions. Make a waypoint at Tbilisi and designate it. Perform a DSG update and when you hit ACPT, the jet will now think it's located at the position of the designated waypoint at Tbilisi, even though you're physically at Batumi. If your waypoint 0 is still set at your parking position, designate it, and perform a DSG on that, and the jet should think you're back where you started.

 

Understood!

So the difference between DCS and NATOPS in the overfly update is that in DCS you just accept rather than pressing the TDC, right? And maybe also the fact that NATOPS doesn't say you have to designate it, just select it.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, hein22 said:

Understood!

So the difference between DCS and NATOPS in the overfly update is that in DCS you just accept rather than pressing the TDC, right? And maybe also the fact that NATOPS doesn't say you have to designate it, just select it.

 

 

Correct, the current DSG process is behaving like the Overfly update procedure but mixing parts of other DSG processes into it and not utilizing sensor ranging for corrections. One part of the entire UPDT function that's missing is that the positional difference between the original INS position and updated INS position should be presented on the ACPT/REJ display (shown in NATOPS Fig. 24-11).


Edited by Tholozor
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15 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

Correct, the current DSG process is behaving like the Overfly update procedure but mixing parts of other DSG processes into it and not utilizing sensor ranging for corrections. One part of the entire UPDT function that's missing is that the positional difference between the original INS position and updated INS position should be presented on the ACPT/REJ display (shown in NATOPS Fig. 24-11).

 

Thanks! I think I got a clearer picture now.

Appreciate the help!

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5 hours ago, hein22 said:

Thanks! I think I got a clearer picture now.

Appreciate the help!

Welcome back hein22.  A bonus answer to a question you didn't ask:  Can my radar AACQ my own Amraams so I can bump lock them as L&S?  The answer... resounding yes!

I had too much coffee this morning...:biggrin:

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1 hour ago, Gripes323 said:

Welcome back hein22.  A bonus answer to a question you didn't ask:  Can my radar AACQ my own Amraams so I can bump lock them as L&S?  The answer... resounding yes!

I had too much coffee this morning...:biggrin:

OMG! So I can literally see them on scope??? I will try that today for sure.

 

16 hours ago, Tholozor said:

I normally update my waypoint 0 after a sortie to where I'm parked and update (can be any waypoint though).

On a side note, If you land on a carrier what procedure you use to update the INS (given no gps avail)? I guess the only option is to go with a CV align again, right?


Edited by hein22

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47 minutes ago, hein22 said:

On a side note, If you land on a carrier what procedure you use to update the INS (given no gps avail)? I guess the only option is to go with a CV align again, right?

 

Correct, post-flight position updates are not necessary on the carrier since the ship itself provides position during alignment.


Edited by Tholozor
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5 hours ago, Tholozor said:

Correct, post-flight position updates are not necessary on the carrier since the ship itself provides position during alignment.

 

Thanks Tholozor!

I hope someone can jump in and provide feedback about the update rate of the MIDS. It intrigates me beyond words hehe.

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2 hours ago, Pieterras said:

@hein22asked the question as a bit of a long shot, however they couldn’t go into specifics on the subject as you could imagine 

 

 

Thanks anyway! The possibility of this being something that cannot be discussed was high so no worries.

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