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AIM-120s + All AIM-120 API Missiles in 2.7.7


DSplayer

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In me and my squadron's current experience with the new patch, the new AIM-120 API (which should apply to all AIM-120 variants and the SD-10) made the missiles extremely easy to defeat. Is this intended or was this a unintended side effect of the new realistic modelling of the seeker head? Guidance on targets that are going cold or beaming have gone out the window and basically made this missile a medium range paperweight. What do you guys think?


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From my point of view, all I can say is that the missile is way less lethal than before. I don't have a technical analysis, but if I had to throw a number, I would say that it is 1/3 as lethal as before. 

edit: only used the AIM-120C


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25 minutes ago, KenobiOrder said:

Its mainly because the new missile is absurdly vulnerable to being notched. If you turn vaguely to the beam the missile goes stupid. It is complete rubbish.

Yeah it's absolutely insane. When I was reading up on the changes when they first got announced, I thought it would do the complete opposite and make the AIM-120 super hard to defeat. There is clearly something wrong that made the missile complete crap to use. Sparrows are more reliable than 120s atm.


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I think it is a WIP issue. The new seeker logic + INS just got out and massive testing is needed. I have seen some situation whether the missile have missed unexplicably.

FOr example on the F18 AIM 120 AMRAAM training mission 2 days ago, where you have several MIG25 turning at 2-3Gs without dropping chaffs, I've seen 2 cases where the AIM120 has missed in a target at a 45-60ish angle (not even close to the beam), with enough energy left, the strange things is that the AIM120 went past him in the front of the target; which again was not deploying CHaff.  It was really strange, unfortunately  i did not got a track of that, I will next time it happens.

I think we just need to help a lot providing tracks of such situations to find the problem.

 

Apart from that, the Amraam works great now in posturing cheap shots. You can expect now that a 40/30ish nm shot will find its target even if you turn cold, provided that your target keeps hot aspect on you ofc. Which is a great tactical addition.

BTW, is it confirmed that all other active missiles (SD10, R77) have the same improvements applied to them? Haven't seen any specific mention to that.

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17 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

I think it is a WIP issue. The new seeker logic + INS just got out and massive testing is needed. I have seen some situation whether the missile have missed unexplicably.

FOr example on the F18 AIM 120 AMRAAM training mission 2 days ago, where you have several MIG25 turning at 2-3Gs without dropping chaffs, I've seen 2 cases where the AIM120 has missed in a target at a 45-60ish angle (not even close to the beam), with enough energy left, the strange things is that the AIM120 went past him in the front of the target; which again was not deploying CHaff.  It was really strange, unfortunately  i did not got a track of that, I will next time it happens.

I think we just need to help a lot providing tracks of such situations to find the problem.

 

Apart from that, the Amraam works great now in posturing cheap shots. You can expect now that a 40/30ish nm shot will find its target even if you turn cold, provided that your target keeps hot aspect on you ofc. Which is a great tactical addition.

BTW, is it confirmed that all other active missiles (SD10, R77) have the same improvements applied to them? Haven't seen any specific mention to that.

only the amraam got the latest set of INS/Datalink updates.  The notch width issue though seems to be a problem across all the missiles. 

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3 hours ago, nighthawk2174 said:

only the amraam got the latest set of INS/Datalink updates.  The notch width issue though seems to be a problem across all the missiles. 

From what I could gather, it's the 120 API (AIM-120 + SD-10) that go changed with the new INS+Datalink guidance, notch filter "improvements", and the new physical seeker limitations. Notching just got worse with all these "improvements".

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1 hour ago, DSplayer said:

From what I could gather, it's the 120 API (AIM-120 + SD-10) that go changed with the new INS+Datalink guidance, notch filter "improvements", and the new physical seeker limitations. Notching just got worse with all these "improvements".

SD-10 doesnt have it yet

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10 minutes ago, KenobiOrder said:

SD-10 doesnt have it yet

I've been having the exact same issues with the SD-10 and the AIM-120C with this new patch in terms of reliability. Plus they're acting the same with that Datalink/INS guidance thing. Maybe it's a placebo.


Edited by DSplayer

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  • ED Team
24.10.2021 в 07:58, DSplayer сказал:

In me and my squadron's current experience with the new patch, the new AIM-120 API (which should apply to all AIM-120 variants and the SD-10) made the missiles extremely easy to defeat.

 

We have not changed the immunity to countermeasures. Everything is the same as before.

НЕТ ВОЙНЕ!

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26 minutes ago, Chizh said:

We have not changed the immunity to countermeasures. Everything is the same as before.

Okay. Is there another factor that is causing missiles to simply get trashed after going cold or barely notching? There also seems to be a lack of reliability in otherwise high Pk shots in comparison to 2.7.6.

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It's possible that the closure/doppler gate is failing to track properly.  Given the number of things added, like kalman filters etc, it could be anything.

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48 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

It's possible that the closure/doppler gate is failing to track properly.  Given the number of things added, like kalman filters etc, it could be anything.

It's a pretty big problem tbh if that's the case. It makes the AIM-120 really hard to justify using when it just gets defeated so easily. It has definitely made an extreme change in how people play in the comp scene since you can just push super aggressively since you know their missile will not hit you. I would personally maybe like the changes to be rolled back or at least the issue be identified and then fixed in a hotfix but I don't know if that would happen.


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I don't see any decrease in efficiency. The missiles miss and hit the same way as before.
Considering the new additions, why does look-down seem to be such a problem still, though? Especially look-down situations where the target is nowhere near the ground and thus ground clutter should never come into the equation, because of range gating.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/283107-active-missile-look-down-notch-width-seems-excessive/
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120s are complete flying flaming dumpsters now. I saw 3 miss a frogfoot flying straight and level from under 10nm. They are so bad I don't even want to play the game now. If you notice no difference then you were probably so bad before that you wouldn't notice now 😂 sorry not sorry. 120s are pure hot garbage now. 

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1 hour ago, SPQR PRAETORIAN said:

120s are complete flying flaming dumpsters now. I saw 3 miss a frogfoot flying straight and level from under 10nm. They are so bad I don't even want to play the game now. If you notice no difference then you were probably so bad before that you wouldn't notice now 😂 sorry not sorry. 120s are pure hot garbage now. 

Yeah there is also an issue now where missiles just fly by targets for no reason, in addition to being easy to notch

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6 hours ago, Harker said:

Considering the new additions, why does look-down seem to be such a problem still, though? Especially look-down situations where the target is nowhere near the ground and thus ground clutter should never come into the equation, because of range gating.

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/283107-active-missile-look-down-notch-width-seems-excessive/

 

Clutter received from sidelobes will be within the same range gate.

It is not that simple.

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3 hours ago, SPQR PRAETORIAN said:

If you notice no difference then you were probably so bad before that you wouldn't notice now 😂 sorry not sorry. 

I laughed so loud here at work that they're looking at me weird.

 

 

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4 hours ago, SPQR PRAETORIAN said:

120s are complete flying flaming dumpsters now. I saw 3 miss a frogfoot flying straight and level from under 10nm. They are so bad I don't even want to play the game now. If you notice no difference then you were probably so bad before that you wouldn't notice now 😂 sorry not sorry. 120s are pure hot garbage now. 

This, I feel the same way. I had an aim-120c miss a nose hot F15 yesterday at 4nm. I’ve been flying with a full sidewinder load out cause these AMRAAMS are so bad now. 

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Yesterday i had 2 AiM-120s plenty of energy (mach 2+) missing an F-16, one while he was going cold and another while he was hot. To be honest an AiM-9 has a higher PK than the 120c right now. The missile is easily trashed by the notch, actually everything is about the notch in DCS right now, making every other defense pointless. Yeah, makes for fun gameplay in competitions and multiplayer, but not realistic at all. Please ED, take a look at this, its not only the AiM-120 that is affected, SD-10 and R-77 also. 

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Please ED, take a look at this. As commented above, PK of missiles is very low. Missing targets due to chaff or notch.

The missile model affects all AA tactics flying in multiplayer, and people like me was waiting this last patch for years and considered it to be even more important that some mayor features of any aircraft.

Please, consider creating a report explaining the new model details as done with other work.

 

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2 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

Clutter received from sidelobes will be within the same range gate.

It is not that simple.

Except this is a major component of how an MPRF radar reduces the sidelobe clutter so that it is not an issue. The returns are filtered into range bins and this significantly suppresses the clutter.

But there is more than just that to range gating. It can also be used, especially with the extremely high angular resolution of monpulse, to distinguish targets from clutter by creating range profiles or simply ignoring returns that come from the same range as the MLC.

 

And moreover there appears to be zero evidence of SNR being implemented. Many targets manage to notch in situations where the targets signal would likely be above the clutter, such as a high/medium altitude target with a missile coming at moderate angles from above.


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ED is working on the API for the missiles, for now the -120, and i'm thankful for that. 
But please, take a look at the notch gates and the seeker: it's nothing like the aiming error we have now, where we have a small chance of fooling the missile close to the ground. Instead we have a reliable, easy way to fool the missile. It hurts a huge aspect of DCS that is Air-to-air combat.
Thanks
 

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