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AIM-120s + All AIM-120 API Missiles in 2.7.7


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To be honest, I think that this aspect is the only one that makes me questioning the otherwise awesome simulation aspect of DCS world.
The 120's never hit against notching targets in PvP. Never. And it even fails to hit non-maneuvring targets as of the latest patch.

Let's hope it's just a bug...

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1 hour ago, Teknetinium said:

Its F-16/F-18 RWR that is way to good with the pression it has, If-16/F-18 did not have so precis RWR where they put the AIM-120  in perfect 90 degree notch every time, you would see AIM-120 work as good as it is working on FLANKER. 

 

Flanker RWR is just as good if you know what you are doing, it also doesnt have to be perfectly 90 degrees if you are slow (sub M0.4). But especially the big Flanker with its large RCS shouldn't be able to do that this easily. MPRF should also make this very hard and also possible to track beaming targets without chaff. 

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1 hour ago, Airhunter said:

Flanker RWR is just as good if you know what you are doing, it also doesnt have to be perfectly 90 degrees if you are slow (sub M0.4). But especially the big Flanker with its large RCS shouldn't be able to do that this easily. MPRF should also make this very hard and also possible to track beaming targets without chaff. 

Trust me I know what Im doing in Flanker and made tests compering F-16, F-18, Su-27 before making statements. 


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3 hours ago, Teknetinium said:

Its F-16/F-18 RWR that is way to good with the pression it has, If-16/F-18 did not have so precis RWR where they put the AIM-120  in perfect 90 degree notch every time, you would see AIM-120 work as good as it is working on FLANKER. 

 

I guess this is what happens when there's blue on blue fighting going on. I haven't flown DCS for 2-3 months, so I can't really judge but as I am usually on the receiving end (flying red), to me Slammer feels like a laser most of the time.

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While a lot of complaints are about the AIM-120 as it is a popular weapon, we have sparrows failing to track on relatively short-range (inside 10nm) high-aspect contacts as well.   So this isn't confined to the 120, it may affect the new API generically although the actual causes may be different for the different missiles.

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3 hours ago, Teknetinium said:

Its F-16/F-18 RWR that is way to good with the pression it has, If-16/F-18 did not have so precis RWR where they put the AIM-120  in perfect 90 degree notch every time, you would see AIM-120 work as good as it is working on FLANKER. 

 

The thing is, I can hit that "perfect 90° notch" in many situations in the flanker, using a combination of radar, datalink and visual notching. Its not hard to notch in the flanker at all. While blue jets having super precise RWRs is 100% an issue, its nowhere near being the primary cause of the notching meta rn (although it is a factor for sure). I see F-14 pilots (without ECM), notching AMRAAMs all day, and they dont have the ultra accurate RWR


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12 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

While a lot of complaints are about the AIM-120 as it is a popular weapon, we have sparrows failing to track on relatively short-range (inside 10nm) high-aspect contacts as well.   So this isn't confined to the 120, it may affect the new API generically although the actual causes may be different for the different missiles.

Yup, Sparrows are definitely underperforming based on public data and evals. However, I did have reasonable success with them in PvP fighting AMRAAM slingers and Alamo C dudes with ambush tactics. But yeah a 10nm high closure shot is easily defeated if the dude just turns away, dives or goes cold. Let alone the chaff thing.

28 minutes ago, Teknetinium said:

Trust me I know what Im doing in Flanker and made tests compering F-16, F-18, Su-27 before making statements. 

 

So do I, I primarily fly the Mig-29 and 21 in PvP. I mute the SPO-10 and notch based on visual geometry and AWACS bearing. Literally get a bearing from GCI and always have that +/- 90 number in your head to defend. But yes the only RWR that is fairly realistic is the one in the F-14 as it has some actual signal processign based on antenna position going on and isn't stable at all in a turning fight. 

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Trust me I know what Im doing in Flanker and made tests compering F-16, F-18, Su-27 before making statements. 
Bottom line teknetinium is that for modern missiles, either us or rus, notching and chaffing is very very low % of success evasion inside their NEZ.

Actual defense for these weapons is staying outside the Mar. Currently in DCS is quite easy and reliable tactic.

BTW the same could be said of SAMs... Its quite easy to notch a SA10 or SA11 at close range, not so sure IRL.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

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10 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

Bottom line teknetinium is that for modern missiles, either us or rus, notching and chaffing is very very low % of success evasion inside their NEZ.

Actual defense for these weapons is staying outside the Mar. Currently in DCS is quite easy and reliable tactic.

BTW the same could be said of SAMs... Its quite easy to notch a SA10 or SA11 at close range, not so sure IRL.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk
 

Isn't the NEZ based on kinematics (dynamics) rather than seeker?

 

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10 hours ago, dundun92 said:

The thing is, I can hit that "perfect 90° notch" in many situations in the flanker, using a combination of radar, datalink and visual notching. Its not hard to notch in the flanker at all. While blue jets having super precise RWRs is 100% an issue, its nowhere near being the primary cause of the notching meta rn (although it is a factor for sure). I see F-14 pilots (without ECM), notching AMRAAMs all day, and they dont have the ultra accurate RWR

 

 

It is no comparison at all. It can work in the Flanker, but not everytime and especially for closer missiles it gets very hard and requires luck. Can work in a clean environment, but very hard to pull of in a big fight.

Meanwhile blufor RWR turns nothing into a simple minigame with 100% success rate. No need to slow down. If it was less precise there would propably be less complaints about their favourite missile being to easy to defeat.

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4 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

It is no comparison at all. It can work in the Flanker, but not everytime and especially for closer missiles it gets very hard and requires luck. Can work in a clean environment, but very hard to pull of in a big fight.

Meanwhile blufor RWR turns nothing into a simple minigame with 100% success rate. No need to slow down. If it was less precise there would propably be less complaints about their favourite missile being to easy to defeat.

I agree that it's part of the problem, but it's not the main issue ATM, as other people have pointed out, you can notch missiles with a less precise RWR like in the Flanker.
IMHO I'd suggest you create a bug report on each of those planes (Viper, Hornet ect.), if there's none created now. I think It's not going to achieve much on a thread about the missile API 😬.

On a sidenote, I really hope the same treatment for missile's seekers go into the other modern platforms as well, Blue or Red, or we'll have soon enough EF-2000 firing Meteors that never hit because "notch".

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On 10/26/2021 at 7:23 PM, dundun92 said:

....................The notch filter, and how small it is is directly correlated to SNR; radars can track targets even "through" the notch if the SNR remains high enough, and RCS will has a significant effect on SNR.

Not true IRL when using a doppler radar.  Pulse yes Doppler no (or PD or FMICW or whatever your particular radar term that is used).

Some radars will enter a mini search either side of the notch centre frequency in the hope that the target is not good at remaining in the notch but if it is the radar will lose it once the track memory has timed out.

The notch filter removes a band of frequencies related to ground speed and has nothing to do with the strength of the received signal.  It notches out the earth and that has one hell of a RCS.

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11 minutes ago, Specter said:

Not true IRL when using a doppler radar.  Pulse yes Doppler no (or PD or FMICW or whatever your particular radar term that is used).

Some radars will enter a mini search either side of the notch centre frequency in the hope that the target is not good at remaining in the notch but if it is the radar will lose it once the track memory has timed out.

The notch filter removes a band of frequencies related to ground speed and has nothing to do with the strength of the received signal.  It notches out the earth and that has one hell of a RCS.

Nope, this exact behavior is described specifically in the F-16 weapons employment manual and has been described by at least one IRL pilot.

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Isn't the NEZ based on kinematics (dynamics) rather than seeker?
 
Yes, it's about kinematics. What I mean is, that now virtual pilots do not stay out of the NEZ because they feel they do not need to as there are easy exploits to avoid being shot down (notch and chaff). It should not be the case, and at least you would have to think very thoroughly if entering the NEZ is a good option for each engagement.

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37 minutes ago, Specter said:

Not true IRL when using a doppler radar.  Pulse yes Doppler no (or PD or FMICW or whatever your particular radar term that is used).

Some radars will enter a mini search either side of the notch centre frequency in the hope that the target is not good at remaining in the notch but if it is the radar will lose it once the track memory has timed out.

The notch filter removes a band of frequencies related to ground speed and has nothing to do with the strength of the received signal.  It notches out the earth and that has one hell of a RCS.

There are methods allowing to track a target even in the notch if the signal to noise ratio is high enough and if the target is not too close to clutter sources (ground). For example: https://patents.justia.com/patent/4450446

@BIGNEWY I also want to point out that perhaps a part of the problem is that in DCS, since the RCS of a plane is a single number which is the frontal RCS, a jet notching a missile has a way smaller RCS than it should. For example: in DCS, a Su 27 notching a radar has an RCS of 5 m^2. IRL, many papers show that at this angle the RCS should be 10 to 100 times higher than the frontal RCS, allowing a way better signal to noise ratio detection.

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44 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

Nope, this exact behavior is described specifically in the F-16 weapons employment manual and has been described by at least one IRL pilot.

Bang, and there goes my 40 years RL experience of fighter radars!

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46 minutes ago, Specter said:

Not true IRL when using a doppler radar.  Pulse yes Doppler no (or PD or FMICW or whatever your particular radar term that is used).

 

The behaviour you're describing only applies to old radars with analog receivers back in the days when there wasn't enough computing power to do fancy stuff that is possible today. For example, modern radars with a digital receiver and monopulse processing don't have to completely notch out the main beam and zero doppler frequencies, they can set thresholds above the predicted ground return and if a return exceeds those thresholds, they can display it. So if the target is close and has a high enough RCS, they can show up even in the notch. 

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It's honestly astounding than an issue this blatantly obvious made it anywhere past testing. I'm sad to say this, but this is very reminiscent of the lighting debacle in 2.5.6 (I think it was .6?), except this new slower patch cycle that was implemented after that is supposed to avoid the worse game breaking issues going to OB....

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Regarding the demonstrated tacview, was ECM involved?

@Chizh there are definitely problems, but they appear difficult to test.   I think a formal test structure/cheat-sheet to help us report missile issues would be of real use here.

I understand that you want to keep missile algorithms and all that internal (or if you want to tell us about it in detail, that would be great - some of us are very interested!) but as you can see, things are getting missed.

The tacview in this thread demonstrated 12 AIM-120 launches, 10-11 of those within the heart of the envelope, all of which miss horribly, as if the missile stops guiding or fails to correctly apply acceleration commands or is delayed in doing so.

I know that MP is more difficult because it introduces extra problems, and I know you need tracks from both clients to help diagnose correctly but at some point I think your internal testers (or even beta testers) should respond to this by trying to test a few scenarios themselves.

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