Jump to content

AIM-120s + All AIM-120 API Missiles in 2.7.7


DSplayer

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, TAW_Blaze said:

...

I noticed the weird oscillations too, sometimes the nose of the missile will keep rotating in circles bleeding a lot of unnecessary airspeed. Unsure what triggers it, I've only seen it a few times.

Oh so it's behaving like the R-77 now. No need to fix, if you ask me - for consistency sake 😄

Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, B503 said:

I think both of you should tell about launch parameters.

How long and how high? How is your speed??

Various parameters. Most of them inside 10 miles under 10kft. I think there was maybe 1 or 2 at high alt around 30 miles, don't recall anymore. Most shots somewhere in transonic range.

There are other factors that are equally important. If you face a great pilot you might fire all of your missiles and not get the kill (and vice versa). It's not uncommon to end up guns only in a 1v1 BVR duel. People also might trash all your missiles due to sheer luck, albeit it is very unlikely even in a single event and exponentially more unlikely in multiple scenarios. I'm ignoring people abusing ECM because it's pointless to talk about it, it's a reported bug and should be fixed. But in my experience even in open MP servers like GS very few people actually abuse it.

The new AMRAAM is not as bad as people make it out to be. There are plenty of issues and some are difficult or impossible to overcome (meaning: if it happens to you in certain conditions, you're very likely screwed). But they don't happen always. I'm uncertain if it's overall better or worse than before the update. Some aspects are improved and some are worse.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly can't find a single aspect where amraams have improved, only drastically worsened. Be it short, medium or long range shots, the missile behaves extremely odd, easily losing lock and exhibiting illogical trajectories with jerky energy robbing flight behavior.. 

FACT: Since the update I've fired off more than 100 amraams in MP (most on GS server), and so far I've only scored hits on helis, I haven't hit a single jet yet. More telling perhaps though I haven't once died to an amraam whilst flying a jet since the update.. as a result I just fly around feeling immune whilst destroying blue ground targets in my red F-16. 

 

On a positive note I got to learn how to use mavs with the F-16 in MP (GS server) without feeling pressured or dying once as I was fiddling trying to learn how to use them properly...and that whilst circling over the most forward targets on the map. Every time someone shot an AMRAAM at me I just did a few turns, sometimes dropped a bit of chaff, and the missiles never hit me. Even got chased by an F-15 no more than 7nm behind me, and fouled all his missiles, to just eventually turn around and nail him with a 9x..

I've entirely stopped packing 120's now, just load purely 9X's as an AA defence in the F16 now. That's how bad my experience with the 120 has been since the patch. 


Edited by Hummingbird
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, TAW_Blaze said:

Various parameters. Most of them inside 10 miles under 10kft. I think there was maybe 1 or 2 at high alt around 30 miles, don't recall anymore. Most shots somewhere in transonic range.

That's explained. Fortunately, about the low to high shot WEZ is still around 8〜10nm. What mostly took a hit are co-alt and high to low. 

From my experience, even from over 30k ft high mach, 30nm is extremely lucky now if you hit due to the oscillation issue.

Also in the high to low, it sometimes hits but hit rate is lower than previous due to the easier track drop.

In overall I think it gets worsened. Some part like low to high barely stays close to the previous 120, but all the other part took hit hard.


Edited by B503
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know what, your whining actually pisses me off.

I just hope you are not a 10 year old boy, because then I would feel bad and would reach out to hold your hand.

 

You know what the purpose of ECM is? Right, you don't want to get hit. So I gess F-14, M-2000c 100 points, the rest need to work on their equipment. 

Oh, after very long digging I even found out, ED changed the AMRAAM API. Don't know why it is such a secret, but maybe, now that you raised such a shit storm, they might admit it and work on it. 

 

Oh, just in case,  that above is called sarcasm, which I consider fitting. 


Edited by Lt_Jaeger
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found some interesting moment on GS server Tacview.

In this one, this F-15C (possibly notch) dodged 120C from 4.5nm right behind, but missile shake itself at last moment just like re-acquired target or something. 

In this one, 120C almost went into ground and did sudden turn(I was recording this flight on game bar and reviewed it, in game F6 view it did 30+G turn all of a sudden) and managed to hit the targetted F/A-18C.

 

Looks like new velocity gate thing made missile really sensitive against "notching movement" but not notch itself.

If this velocity gate is the cause of the problem, the misses within 4-5 nm tail-on or head-on can also be explained.

4-5nm is somewhere close to the range which the 120 burn time ends, so 120 has so much increasing relative velocity against target in these moments. It may trigger seeker's velocity gate to think "It's false target" or something…basically, VGPO itself from target.

 

 

P.S. If this thought is correct, I wonder why 120's pulse doppler seeker is affected only by velocity gate...is it overwriting seeker's range gate's information of something?


Edited by B503
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Had a flight today where 5/9 launches were trashed due to the AIM-120C failing to intercept

All missiles were supported to PITBULL, two of them supported to TIMEOUT and still missed.

55% chance for a missile to miss for no other reason than the missile failing tot intercept is absolutely awful. These were AI so they were not executing drag maneuvers, nor were we shooting outside of LAR (the actual LAR, not what the NIRD displays, since that is not accurate since ~1-2 years ago when 120C model was adjusted, but that's a different matter entirely...).

Edit: This was versus MiG-29


Edited by MARLAN_

 1A100.png?format=1500w  

Virtual CVW-8 - The mission of Virtual Carrier Air Wing EIGHT is to provide its members with an organization committed to presenting an authentic representation of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing operations in training and combat environments based on the real world experience of its real fighter pilots, air intercept controllers, airbosses, and many others.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/7/2021 at 6:05 AM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

So uhm, anyone can show me this happening to any other aircraft besides the Meme-14 yet ? 
No ? Thought so  
All this bla bla "i think it's not this or that"... meanwhile only with F14 (as usual) 😅

 

Then watch this one please.

It's not the Tomcat.

- There's no ECM on Vipers ATM
- Missile had plenty of energy
- No ground clutter, or as the guy who sent me this said, maybe "Sun clutter?"
- Viper was pulling 5G's at most and under mach 1.2


Edited by Hotel Tango

HRP | Derby
"Wardog, launch!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yeah no that's not even close to what you can witness in the videos. 
Not saying it's good (aim120 tracking in general is bad), but these missiles at least TRY to track ! 

In the video's with the F14's the missiles just fly in all directions. SIX of them, from behind 


Edited by Csgo GE oh yeah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are seeing missiles missing from all directions in multiplayer, but somehow we need to recreate the exact conditions from that video to point out how the missile is behaving incredible bad, not only against the "Meme-14".


Edited by Hotel Tango

HRP | Derby
"Wardog, launch!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Noticed AIM-9's also go almost 90 deg off the rails in MP, losing a lot of energy. 

 

It feels like it's only the Russian missiles that are properly functioning atm. Scoring kills with them is easy peasy.

 

Btw, the 120's issues have nothing to do with the F14, the 120's are equally bad against all the other jets, it's just awful. Still haven't shot any jet down with it yet, only a couple of helis. And haven't been shot down by it yet either when flying the F16 or Su27


Edited by Hummingbird
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

Noticed AIM-9's also go almost 90 deg off the rails in MP, losing a lot of energy. 

 

It feels like it's only the Russian missiles that are properly functioning atm. Scoring kills with them is easy peasy.

 

Btw, the 120's issues have nothing to do with the F14, the 120's are equally bad against all the other jets, it's just awful. Still haven't shot any jet down with it yet, only a couple of helis. And haven't been shot down by it yet either when flying the F16 or Su27

There seems to be a difference though that sets the F-14 apart from the other modules, as AMRAAMs sometimes seem to not guide at all on jamming Tomcats, whereas against other fighters they do try to intercept but perform very badly in doing so.

  • Like 1

Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, QuiGon said:

There seems to be a difference though that sets the F-14 apart from the other modules, as AMRAAMs sometimes seem to not guide at all on jamming Tomcats, whereas against other fighters they do try to intercept but perform very badly in doing so.

Same thing happens to F-15C also even before this update. If you're shooting against jamming F-15C or F-14A/B, your missile doesn't go loft and just fly straight. Looks like this update heavily worsened 120/SD-10's CCM capability and seeker itself, and that's why the "meme 14 thing" happen. F-14's and heatblur shouldn't be blamed or made fun of.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, B503 said:

Same thing happens to F-15C also even before this update. If you're shooting against jamming F-15C or F-14A/B, your missile doesn't go loft and just fly straight. Looks like this update heavily worsened 120/SD-10's CCM capability and seeker itself, and that's why the "meme 14 thing" happen. F-14's and heatblur shouldn't be blamed or made fun of.

 

Exactly, the problem lies with the missiles. I haven't been shot down once by AMRAAMS since the update whilst flying a jet, which is telling. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

indeed - there is something wrong in the late phase of the intercept path of the missile against a target. Short before impact, the missile start with wild weird oscillations for no reason. Even when the missile pass the target in 7 or less metres, the missile do not detonate as should be.

Even the beam effect seems to be too effective. In fact it's factor for long ranges (more them 40 NM's) but not in short. The modern software and radars can dial with it much better then DCS now.   

For jamming targets - yes, the missile should go straight from the rail because there is no range to calculate the intercept run and even no range to activate the seeker. So from my point of view, it's correct. If there is no range from the RADAR or DATALINK. 

 

On the other hand: Now I can release a missile from 40NM's against two Su-27's and go cold. The missiles gliding perfectly into the Flankers. I tested it multiple times and I was really impressed. So it's not to bad. 

So for me: Just correct the missile behavior of the intercept endgame, the beam-effect in lower ranges and everything is fine for me. 

Thank you very much,

 

TOM


Edited by TOMCATZ

Born to fly but forced to work.

 

TomFliegerKLEIN.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if I believe that flying pure pursuit in a jamming situation is entirely realistic.

It can't acquire range, and it's most likely going to have a lower quality intercept, but it should be able to extrapolate lead based on target movement to some degree. Like how a Sidewinder is able to pull lead despite obviously not having range, since it is IR only.

- I do agree with everything else you said, the terminal phase of the AMRARAM is extremely poor, and notching effect should be reduced as range decreases.


Edited by MARLAN_

 1A100.png?format=1500w  

Virtual CVW-8 - The mission of Virtual Carrier Air Wing EIGHT is to provide its members with an organization committed to presenting an authentic representation of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing operations in training and combat environments based on the real world experience of its real fighter pilots, air intercept controllers, airbosses, and many others.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

I don't know if I believe that flying pure pursuit in a jamming situation is entirely realistic.

It can't acquire range, and it's most likely going to have a lower quality intercept, but it should be able to extrapolate lead based on target movement to some degree. Like how a Sidewinder is able to pull lead despite obviously not having range, since it is IR only.

- I do agree with everything else you said, the terminal phase of the AMRARAM is extremely poor, and notching effect should be reduced as range decreases.

 

We may have ignored the important point.

I currently only use F-15C and F-16CM so I don't know much about F-14A/B and F/A-18C. But I'm not sure F-16CM and F/A-18C has HOJ mode and burn through capability on radar(I think F-16CM don't have it afaik). This "Meme 14 thing" is possibly triggered by not only missile's API but also launching aircraft's radar modeling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, B503 said:

Same thing happens to F-15C also even before this update. If you're shooting against jamming F-15C or F-14A/B, your missile doesn't go loft and just fly straight.

10 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

For jamming targets - yes, the missile should go straight from the rail because there is no range to calculate the intercept run and even no range to activate the seeker. So from my point of view, it's correct. If there is no range from the RADAR or DATALINK.

Uhm guys, there's a big difference between a missile not lofting because of jammed range information and a missile not guiding at all! The latter is new for me since the recent updates and so far I have only seen this happening against (jamming?) Tomcats:


This is a different issue than the poor intercept behaviour of the AMRAAM, which also exitsts since the recent updates.

Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know, know, I saw a bunch of AI AMRAAM shots trashed by the weird oscillating behavior while flying Liberation missions last night but I can't reproduce it. I did a bunch of co-altitude, head-on tests with various aircraft vs F-14 and Mig-29 and AIM-120C is hitting between 2 of 3 and 3 of 4 shots. To me, the misses in my tracks look like legitimately defeated missiles.

F-16 vs F-14 AMRAAM AI.trk F-15 vs F-14 AMRAAM AI.trk F-15 vs MIG-29 AMRAAM AI.trk F-18 vs F-14 AMRAAM AI.trk F-18 vs MIG 29 AMRAAM AI.trk

Ryzen 5 3600, Radeon RX 5600 XT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Relevant video that I found (not my video)

https://streamable.com/5kt8fn

  • Like 3

 1A100.png?format=1500w  

Virtual CVW-8 - The mission of Virtual Carrier Air Wing EIGHT is to provide its members with an organization committed to presenting an authentic representation of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing operations in training and combat environments based on the real world experience of its real fighter pilots, air intercept controllers, airbosses, and many others.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

120s seemed to find each other,fuel tanks and friendlies and kill them just fine. 

and 120s that seem to shoot you down every night seem to hit you just fine when they are shot by someone who knows how to shoot them.

 

Think all this shows is a big chunk of 120 spammers have the flight IQ of DCS Ai from 2005. 

 

*edit* the lazy route of adding in 50 ai spamming amramms so you dont have to do 50 seperate tests kinda didnt help ya here. just sayin'


Edited by Soulres
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...