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Wind Curve - please remove


philstyle

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Can The forced wind-speed curve be significantly toned down plase?

If I want a 20kts surface wind, the ME forces me to accept 45 Knots at 1600ft.
This is madness.

I understand the need for a smooth transition in wind-speeds, but forcing a more-than-doubling of wind speed over 1600ft of altitude is incredibly restrictive.

 

ME wind.JPG

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I agree with the OP's remarks.  It would be good to have more control over the winds. Having suggested wind figures/directions that tied in to the overall weather setting (to cater for say inversions...) would be great, but give the mission designer the option to make changes. For the poster adding links to weather manuals, I spent my career as a military fast jet pilot and have been taught and read enough about it.

Could it also be clarified what the ft settings in the windows are? Are they altitude, or height?  On the assumption that the wind model is fairly simple they could be altitude, which means that any airfields above sea level could be facing significantly stronger surface winds than set on the 33ft window.  For example, some of the southern airfields on Normandy map are 500ft+ above sea level, which could mean a surface wind of around 30kts with the settings above.  If the lowered windowed settings are heights, what happens when airfields are significantly above sea level, as occurs on other maps - will there be a negative wind gradient. or a sudden change in wind velocity (in effect some form of shear)?

Does the wind direction for the 1600ft window take account of the airfield latitude and the time of day?

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Agree with op , this lack of adjustment seems off , the indicate speed also looks like it could be inaccurate , mission Last night had 22kts ground wind , 42 at 1600ft but it felt more like 60mph+ ... can ed confirm ?

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I would like to add my weight to this post also. I have military aviation experience and a weather forecaster/meteorologist background. Any clarifications on what burritto has asked would greatly help mission editors.

20kts surface wind with 45 Knots at 1600ft is very rare meteorologically outside of synoptic or terrain influences. Can this not be forced universally?

Is 33ft wind values AGL or MSL? What is the smoothing/averaging that is done across wind levels?

Also what do the turbulence values in the ME do?

I would be more than happy to assist or provide metrological sources to help.

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4 hours ago, Giggles said:

I would like to add my weight to this post also. I have military aviation experience and a weather forecaster/meteorologist background. Any clarifications on what burritto has asked would greatly help mission editors.

20kts surface wind with 45 Knots at 1600ft is very rare meteorologically outside of synoptic or terrain influences. Can this not be forced universally?

Is 33ft wind values AGL or MSL? What is the smoothing/averaging that is done across wind levels?

Also what do the turbulence values in the ME do?

I would be more than happy to assist or provide metrological sources to help.

If you put those values into an atmospheric boundary layer formula (google one or check your meteorological sources), you may find these numbers seem perfectly reasonable. It all depends on the type of ground that determines surface friction https://www.simscale.com/knowledge-base/atmospheric-boundary-layer-abl/. I suppose the DCS model is based on height above the airfield, since (afaik) there is no meteorology modelled, nor terrain height influence on wind.

 

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Theory is all well and good, I can assure you that it is exceedingly rare in reality for 20 knot surface winds to have minimum 45 knot winds at 1600ft without a synoptic forcing feature such as a front or terrain influences such as a nocturnal jet setup, and even then that is alarmingly strong winds just above the surface.

I look at observation radiosondes and model traces of this stuff daily to forecast aviation weather, if the OP scenario occurred in reality I would highly likely forecast moderate turbulence across flat terrain. So having that as the hard coded requirement is basically mandating moderate (over flat terrain) to severe (over hills of only 2000ft) turbulence across significant areas.

As an example, this is the gradient wind analysis, aka wind strength approx 1500-2000ft MSL, for this morning. Not much strength above 30 knots let along 45 knots, can only see it around strong synoptic features as I stated, such as the Indian ocean low and the Typhoon off Japan. I accidentality linked the address rather than the static image, I have updated it with a image file of today's chart only. Still the only area above 30 knots is ahead of a synoptic feature, the low and trough over Western Australia.

IDD67950.png


Edited by Giggles
Incorrect image link
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vor 18 Stunden schrieb Wrcknbckr:

If you put those values into an atmospheric boundary layer formula (google one or check your meteorological sources), you may find these numbers seem perfectly reasonable. It all depends on the type of ground that determines surface friction https://www.simscale.com/knowledge-base/atmospheric-boundary-layer-abl/. I suppose the DCS model is based on height above the airfield, since (afaik) there is no meteorology modelled, nor terrain height influence on wind.

 

The point is not to debate, that this conditions are "possible" or even likely. The question was if mission designers could get an option to manually adjust the wind speed if they want to represent "rare/terrain" conditions.

An easy way would be to only adjust the 1600ft value automatically, if the 33ft value is changed and if the mission designer willingly chooses to edit the 1600ft value it does not automatically adjust the 33ft value.

Add an info box telling you that this "can cause issues" and everybody can cater their preferences. Flexibility to test and train extremes as well as standard situation without harm to pilot or aircraft is a key point in having a simulator. 😇

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21 hours ago, Wrcknbckr said:

If you put those values into an atmospheric boundary layer formula (google one or check your meteorological sources), you may find these numbers seem perfectly reasonable. It all depends on the type of ground that determines surface friction https://www.simscale.com/knowledge-base/atmospheric-boundary-layer-abl/. I suppose the DCS model is based on height above the airfield, since (afaik) there is no meteorology modelled, nor terrain height influence on wind.

 

So we're forced to use this "possible" edge case every time?
This is bonkers. Take a look at a sample of winds aloft records.  A 20kt to 41kt change from 0 to 1600ft altitude is exceedingly rare. Yet we are forced to adopt this curve in every single mission. In DCS, as it is currently, it is impossible for the 1600ft wind to be anything other than 41kts if the sea-level wind is set to 20 kts.
Sure, there are places and days in real life when this is the case. But suggesting that it is the case 100% of the time is empirically false -  and this is what the ME does currently.

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Interestingly it ties into a dll for weather data to do the math for the change to be applied. Since it is just the editor files restricting it one could comment out a few lines from me_weather.lua to make both values independent of each other. Say 817, 828, 846, and 855 should do the trick. It is possible the game doesn't actually read that value to define the weather though.

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  • 7 months later...

+1.

The current fixed wind setting is unrealistic. It could happen but we're talking of something that is definitely not common and also restricts a lot the amount of wind that anyone would like to have at sea level due to the fact that if I want 25 knots I have a ridiculous wind speed at 1600ft. Windshear everywhere 😅


Edited by ienatom
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 11/7/2021 at 7:39 AM, Grimes said:

Interestingly it ties into a dll for weather data to do the math for the change to be applied. Since it is just the editor files restricting it one could comment out a few lines from me_weather.lua to make both values independent of each other. Say 817, 828, 846, and 855 should do the trick. It is possible the game doesn't actually read that value to define the weather though.

This is interesting, has anyone tested this? Looking at the contents of the weather section of the actual unpacked miz files it doesn't look like there is a setting for the 1600' level, so I think the ME is just showing what the DCS weather engine will do at runtime. 

In the main topic - totally agree, it's complete madness. For those people asking, the altitudes in the ME are MSL, and as far as I know from a lot of rotary wing testing in DCS there is absolutely zero interaction between the terrain of any kind and any of the weather settings except turbulence.


Edited by Scaley
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I have to agree that the logic seems a bit off..   whatever number you set at ground it doubles it... I'm taking the weather from an API to make it dynamic and this was a cause for discussion for a while till someone pointed to that duplication happening..  Now I had to set the ground level to be at 0.5 of what I want to have really to avoid this..

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