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Who and for what Would you like to buy any new modules?


mosqui

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Good morning ED A few days ago I had thought about buying a new module but I canceled the purchase due to a performance problem that prevents me from enjoying your magnificent simulator. The problem has two main causes, the first is that I cannot buy a graphics card powerful enough to be able to play your sim, there are no stocks and the prices are exaggeratedly high. And the other root cause is your simulator, each new update supposes a loss of performance. Perhaps from ED they should start to worry about this, since if there are no graphics cards available and the performance of the sim is every time worst. Who and for what Would you like to buy any new modules?. Think about this and improve your software and do not invest your resources in new modules that no one will buy because it will be impossible to play them satisfactorily. Thank you and I hope that my reflection will help you in your business. Goodbye

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Currently holding out on buying the apache for this very reason. 

I am just not confident I'll be able to enjoy it if the performance keeps degrading every patch. 

With the current GPU market, its not likely I'll be able to afford an upgrade next year.

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As an owner of a 3090 performance is degrading, even on the one of the most powerful cards on the market today, and whilst i mainly play in VR there has been a consistent increase in burden on GPU frametime; and while you can reduce the settings, some of the settings don't natively have have the granularity that facilitate changes (turning of tree and object shadows, whilst retaining land shadows) for example that we used to be able to do with mods and now can no longer.

There is a constant drive to improve the visual quality and detail of the game, which is great to see, but that must come with attendant improvements in performance, or the ability to turn off those improvements, we have seen that in recent maps as well as in recent modules and improvements clouds/sea etc... these visual improvements are amazing... but the core engine struggles to support them.  I know I can reduce those settings (but clouds for example just look ugly on reduced settings and immersion breaking), I can turn of MSAA but then we get shimmer introduced and jaggies that I find it difficult to deal with... and so on these are compromises that I "should not" have to make on a well optimised PC, but functionally have to consider because of the lack of optimisation in the game.  And yes I know its comming ...

Conversely I did buy the Apache as the only way ED gets investment in its core engine is through module sales... but I need to see an improvement soon.   


Edited by speed-of-heat
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I'm personally holding up with Apache, my woman modernised her PC for that, but also she got only GTX 1070, me 1080. I know it's openbeta, and things changes, but i barely can fly hind, can i tell more... i can't even fly hind, because when fps goin under 60 i got TrackIR lags, and cannot fly without that. When i fire up MFCD's in apache my PC can only say "So long partner, i'm out"

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:pilotfly:

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I agree, unfortunately the limited video card market has made the situation considerably worse. It must also be said that the simulator is not very optimized and this becomes a serious problem. The ED has to spend resources on this particular, because we read on this forum that even the lucky owners of video cards (3090) have problems and performance drops. I would love to take the Apache too but the situation scares me a lot. Maybe it has become a priority to update the PC first ... but what can it do?

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Every now and then I tend to note down framerates I'm getting in P-51D instant takeoff mission on Caucasus map, just looking around in 4 directions.

In recent months I got from 98 FPS in forward view in last build of 2.5.6 down to 63 in latest Open Beta with the same settings. That's a pretty bad performance hit to pay just for a nicer propeller animation, clouds and water. I like them, obviously, but what's the point, if I have to turn the clouds off, switch water to low, and even that gives me only up to 10 FPS back.

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I am also on hold with buying the Apache - at least in EA. Bought the Mossy lately and regretted it two weeks later, when the last update hit my system and took the FPS down to an unplaybale level in VR. As I am in the same situation that most graphics cards that would make a substantial update to my system are not affordable and most times not available, too, I had to put DCS aside to wait and see if and when the perfomance issues will improve a lot for the better. And I am afraid that the hardware situation will last at least until the end of '22 if not stay for the next years on this high prices level as demand for crypto currency calculations and general market demands seem to remain unchanged. So I just can hope that ED has something on his hands to improve the graphics engine and the generall sim so much that we won't need the best hardware money can buy to play on mediocre settings...


Edited by schmiefel
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You young whippersnappers got it easy; you don't know when you got it good. 

Back when I was young, we went to school, barefoot through the snow, uphill both ways, and we liked it!

And we played A2-FS1 on a 1 MHz Apple //, 4 fps line art where you kinda-sorta could make out the scenery when you squinted your eyes

Flight_Simulator_1.0_short_animation.thu

Note the mountain range. That's Caucasus for you.

7 hours ago, mosqui said:

Who and for what Would you like to buy any new modules?.

I, to fly. In VR.

Yeah. Frame rates suck. But DCS is still the best show in town, and I take what I can get. And when I get into a strange mood, I bust out the old Apple // emulator to run SubLogic's first oevre -- and get on everyone's nerves about the good old times. 

 


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Excuse me Cfrag , although I do not want to argue, your comment about going back to the old days does not seem serious. Would you be comfortable watching black and white movies or 720p videos, paying for a NASA computer or a 4K tv ? I guess not. Well, this case is similar, I cannot spend thousands of euros on a gpu card and not enjoy my simulator unless I lower my expectations to low or very low, it depends on each machine. ED must certainly improve and optimize its software if it wants to continue in the circus.that is my opinion like customer

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Well, I too have noticed that performance is going down, but I'm still kinda happy with my 25-35ish, depending on the module and the map. I was used to 60ish, but the introduction of the new clouds, while beautiful, removed SLI support and my second GPU died at the same time.
My computer is from May 2013, and was the top of the line at that time, even have 6x840 512GB EVOs in two stripes, so loading is quick.
Holding out for a new computer, but no way at this time.
I have pretty much all the DLCs, and I will continue to purchase the ones I'm interested in.
@cfrag a word in your post just made me snap and send it off to my GF. She's been using that expression of late.

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I do mostly single player, and sometimes even in a simple Instant Action mission (Carrier landing) I might get stutters, running on:

i7 4790K ; 16 GB DDR 3 ; GeForce GTX 1660ti ; Samsung 860 QVO SSD.

 

Having said that, I intend to eventually acquire more modules like the AH-64, EF 2000, MiG-29 (full fidelity), South Atlantic, etc.

... if however in the upcomming times my PC starts getting too overloaded to play DCS, I'll probably take a brake as I can not aford a new one in the near future : 'reasonable' hardware is getting absurdly expensive.

 

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3 hours ago, cfrag said:

You young whippersnappers got it easy; you don't know when you got it good. 

Back when I was young, we went to school, barefoot through the snow, uphill both ways, and we liked it!

And we played A2-FS1 on a 1 MHz Apple //, 4 fps line art where you kinda-sorta could make out the scenery when you squinted your eyes

 

 

 

Yeah. I remember. There were 11 of us, we lived in a lake. My mother cut the wind for breakfast, I didn't know my father because he died of liver cancer when he died in a tragic car accident, after self-immolating on his uncle Eugene's name day. Uncle Eugene was taken away by the NKVD in 59, no one complained.

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...and we were happy to have the NKVD I can tell you!

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Well, hasn't it been always like this in the past?
If no, then why did i buy a new PC every few years (counting back to early 1980's).
I tell you... just to keep up with ever more demanding software. It happened then, and it still happens today and not only on ED's behalf.
Only drawback (and holding me back to upgrade) are the superhigh prices of hardware these days.

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hace 18 horas, mosqui dijo:

Good morning ED A few days ago I had thought about buying a new module but I canceled the purchase due to a performance problem that prevents me from enjoying your magnificent simulator. The problem has two main causes, the first is that I cannot buy a graphics card powerful enough to be able to play your sim, there are no stocks and the prices are exaggeratedly high. And the other root cause is your simulator, each new update supposes a loss of performance. Perhaps from ED they should start to worry about this, since if there are no graphics cards available and the performance of the sim is every time worst. Who and for what Would you like to buy any new modules?. Think about this and improve your software and do not invest your resources in new modules that no one will buy because it will be impossible to play them satisfactorily. Thank you and I hope that my reflection will help you in your business. Goodbye

Welcome to ED Policies. Things never end, they offer aircraft in early that years go by and they never finish it. They take out new modules with bug in planes that are years old. Now they throw down the performance adding cosmetics to the water, when they should focus on migrating to Vulkan and Multinucleo before putting new graphic things, from 2017 that according to this are working, but of course it is more important to raise with the new modules. The apache will come nice, everything will look stuck but nice.


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I have nothing but respect for the developers at Eagle Dynamics, I'm sure they are trying hard. But I disagree with the policies of their management, which is improving fidelity at any cost and performance be damned. I have one of the best graphics cards on the market today, and when I have just managed to squeeze a satisfactory performance out of it, ED releases a BETA patch that tanks that performance down to a level where I have to stop playing the sim.

Yes I have stopped playing the sim, and I will not be returning until ED get their house in order. I have not pre-ordered the Apache, and I won't be buying any more modules unless they can bring performance back to at least the level it was at with 2.7.6. I have spent so much money on hardware so I could partake in this hobby that I'm feeling a huge letdown at the moment. I have no more money, nor hardware to throw at the problem, I have invested heavily into my system for VR exclusively for DCS World, have managed to get it where I want it, and now I have to stop playing the sim which feels like a huge, very huge letdown. 

I realize that Vulcan and multicore is coming, but that might be as far away as a year from now (probably more), and the performance when it comes, well I don't want to make predictions but this is Eagle Dynamics we are talking about. I'm not buying ANOTHER 2000$ MSRP graphics card just to be able to play one sim, that would be paramount to a sunk cost fallacy. Sorry if this post is coming across as harsh, but I can't justify anything less than this kind of response. I will still visit the forums from time to time to check on progress, but for now my DCS playing days are over. Peace. 


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12 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I have nothing but respect for the developers at Eagle Dynamics, I'm sure they are trying hard. But I disagree with the policies of their management, which is improving fidelity at any cost and performance be damned. I have one of the best graphics cards on the market today, and when I have just managed to squeeze a satisfactory performance out of it, ED releases a BETA patch that tanks that performance down to a level where I have to stop playing the sim.

Yes I have stopped playing the sim, and I will not be returning until ED get their house in order. I have not pre-ordered the Apache, and I won't be buying any more modules unless they can bring performance back to at least the level it was at with 2.7.6. I have spent so much money on hardware so I could partake in this hobby that I'm feeling a huge letdown at the moment. I have no more money, nor hardware to throw at the problem, I have invested heavily into my system for VR exclusively for DCS World, have managed to get it where I want it, and now I have to stop playing the sim which feels like a huge, very huge letdown. 

I realize that Vulcan and multicore is coming, but that might be as far away as a year from now (probably more), and the performance when it comes, well I don't want to make predictions but this is Eagle Dynamics we are talking about. I'm not buying ANOTHER 2000$ MSRP graphics card just to be able to play one sim, that would be paramount to a sunk cost fallacy. Sorry if this post is coming across as harsh, but I can't justify anything less than this kind of response. I will still visit the forums from time to time to check on progress, but for now my DCS playing days are over. Peace. 

 

I have a lot of sympathy for your position; I will go slightly further in that adding another 2000$ graphics card wouldn't actually help... I do think that ED needs to recognise that the have a functional frametime budget for VR in terms of quality improvements, and i definitely agree.. improving quality at the expense of performance is unacceptable, especially when you can't switch off the changes

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34 minuti fa, Lurker ha scritto:

Non ho altro che rispetto per gli sviluppatori di Eagle Dynamics, sono sicuro che si stanno impegnando. Ma non sono d'accordo con le politiche della loro gestione, che sta migliorando la fedeltà ad ogni costo e le prestazioni al diavolo. Ho una delle migliori schede grafiche sul mercato oggi, e quando sono appena riuscito a ottenere prestazioni soddisfacenti da essa, ED rilascia una patch BETA che riduce le prestazioni a un livello in cui devo smettere di giocare alla sim.

Sì, ho smesso di giocare alla sim e non tornerò finché ED non avrà messo in ordine la loro casa. Non ho preordinato l'Apache e non acquisterò altri moduli a meno che non possano riportare le prestazioni almeno al livello a cui erano con 2.7.6. Ho speso così tanti soldi per l'hardware in modo da poter prendere parte a questo hobby che al momento sento un'enorme delusione. Non ho più soldi, né hardware da dedicare al problema, ho investito molto nel mio sistema per la realtà virtuale esclusivamente per DCS World , sono riuscito a portarlo dove voglio, e ora devo smettere di giocare alla sim che sembra una grande, grandissima delusione. 

Mi rendo conto che Vulcan e multicore stanno arrivando, ma potrebbe essere lontano un anno da oggi (probabilmente di più), e le prestazioni quando arriveranno, beh, non voglio fare previsioni ma stiamo parlando di Eagle Dynamics di. Non sto comprando UN'ALTRA scheda grafica da 2000 $ MSRP solo per poter giocare con una sim, sarebbe fondamentale per un errore di costo irrecuperabile. Mi scuso se questo post sembra essere duro, ma non posso giustificare niente di meno di questo tipo di risposta. Visiterò ancora i forum di tanto in tanto per controllare i progressi, ma per ora i miei giorni di gioco DCS sono finiti. La pace. 

 

You have my utmost understanding

 

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The thing that angers me the most is that ED reads these discussions, but they don't provide an answer to the problem. I'd like to read their response just to let you know they got the message. Where are the administrators of this forum? They are the eyes of the ED, if there are people who write their opinions on an update that has worsened the performance of the sim, it would be right to respond and assure everyone that they are working on the problem. Ok it's a beta version, but how many use the stable today?

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Don't hold your breath for it. I know it sound pesimistic but if I read it right, ED just began aware of the problem yesterday or few days ago?
Roll back to previous version is one of the solutions I can think of right now if you still want to play DCS.
For me the huge let down is missile (120) performance. I stop playing DCS for now. Good thing is there's always "another sim not to be named" to play, so I still fly gents... hehehe
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44 minutes ago, Oceandar said:

Don't hold your breath for it. I know it sound pesimistic but if I read it right, ED just began aware of the problem yesterday or few days ago?
Roll back to previous version is one of the solutions I can think of right now if you still want to play DCS.
For me the huge let down is missile (120) performance. I stop playing DCS for now. Good thing is there's always "another sim not to be named" to play, so I still fly gents... hehehe

No breath held. I have enough to keep me entertained with the Hind's basics and getting back into the game after several months away without having to revert lucky for me.  In additon whilst some of the hinds quick missions are stuttery, they play smoothly with the Hip of the Shark as a sub so, again, things to keep me happy. 

 

For the sentiments expressed in this this thread though I do hold a lot of sympathy even if I do not entirely agree with to totalism of some of the comments. I have to balance the ying with the yang and I recognize that, for me at least and for now, the game usually plays as well if not better than in 2016 when I picked it back up again after LOMAC whilst looking much improved. Sure I could list a 100 things that irk me but I could do the same for any other flight sim as well. 

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I'd like to see it that way: what we are getting in the present was planned and started let's say 2-3(+) years ago!(?) So the outcome of those plans is always uncertain to match the hardware when finished. I also guess nobody thought that the graphic cards that are needed for decent FPS go up to 2000$+ in those days. I for one have enough problems with an i7 8700 + RTX2080 to get a good experience. In VR it is worse.

So, I don't know whether ED can slow down FPS-eating developements as fast as we'd like it. But I support those who wish that we could take a break to consolidate until we get new technology that boosts some FPS like Vulkan, maybe DLSS2, or this SSD->VRAM-thing i forgot the name of.

If we go on like we do now I'm afraid even RTX4080 + Alder Lake CPUs* won't save us (for long). (*Or whatever valued AMD guys are dreaming of).

btw: I ordered the Apache. So I still believe in a happy end and in ED.

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