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External lighting on tail


Baz000

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So, i've been watching alot of Tomcat videos and google image searches lately and I noticed something that looked like a potential disparity between the external lighting intensity on the real bird as well as the way the anti collision beacons look.

I'm aware of the fact that you can account for alot of this because of camera optics and phenomenon to do with shutter speeds and etc... 

However, I noticed some patterns emerge when I looked carefully enough.

For one, it looks as though the anti-collision beacons on the top of the tails possibly don't really actually "flash" it looks like they are always on in a steady state and "pulse" in intensity when switched on. Also, during the day time it looks like the intensity of it in DCS is quite dim compared to what you can see for example in this video. I can't speak to the TCS light under the chin, I would think it would work much the same way as the tail lighting.

In this particular night cat shots video you can see it really pronounced too, notice that the Hornet tail strobe is visible later in the video too

 

Also, to further state my point... I have yet to find a single night time image of a Tomcat with lights activated that does not show the red tail lights on as well, which leads me to further postulate that these particular lights in reality were constantly in an on state and not flashing on and off... But rather Pulsing in light intensity to give the visual effect of a beacon. The only time you see these lights not on is if the plane is blacked out and running dark in the images.

To my second point, of the white position light on the port tail... In DCS it looks far too dim, again comparatively to images and video.

So, dunno if my observation makes any sense or if cameras are just playing tricks etc... But i'm just pointing out my observations.

 

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I have always thought the external lights on the HB F-14 are too dim compared to real life. I have actually seen F-14's with the lights on back in the day and they are brighter than they are in the sim. That is the whole idea of them. To be seen.

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I know for civilian aircraft for example, the FAA has specific lighting standards that they be visible for a minimum of X miles (forget the number specifically but I think 3 or 5 miles rings a bell)... No idea if the Navy just uses the same FAA standards or they came up with their own.

I think in general in DCS as a whole the external lighting has been very hard to see from farther away... Though in the recent months it has been getting alot better and it is starting to look far more authentic. I think up close they are starting to look good in DCS, it is when you are farther away that is the problem... Which is kinda the whole point of them as you said, "to be seen."


Edited by Baz000
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Agreed, all F-14 videos that I've seen show the anti-collision lights 'pulse' i.e they're always on but get brighter and dimmer without actually being off. As opposed to now where the lights flash on and off.

11 minutes ago, Manhorne said:

I have always thought the external lights on the HB F-14 are too dim compared to real life. I have actually seen F-14's with the lights on back in the day and they are brighter than they are in the sim. That is the whole idea of them. To be seen.

Personally, this seems more like a problem for how lights render at range, rather than them being too bright/dim, when you're up close they're fine IMO, but the problem is they're basically invisible at more or less any other distance.

The thing here is solving the issue at them being visible at range, without turning them into massive, obnoxious, fake looking, FSX orbs like what happened to the Hornet last year.

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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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They are switched on and off. It is a relay circuit similar to your car blinker. They are filament bulbs and there’s also a capacitance there that takes a bit to discharge completely, so they do exhibit that pulsed behavior, although cameras also tend to make it look exaggerated. 

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Oh, so because it doesn't completely discharge it appears to the naked eyes to be continually illuminated and pulsing?

So, does that mean the current implementation in DCS is not entirely 100% accurate?

Does this same capacitive effect happen on the TCS chin light too?

When I was looking at Tomcat videos, I found one with I think a KA-6 and you got a good look at the tail light and immediately, I thought that is exactly like what the Tomcat in DCS looks like right now. At timestamp 11:12... I was like, that is the spitting image of how it looks in DCS.

Also, Spiceman... Thanks for your reply, I heard you spent many years working on Tomcats.

 


Edited by Baz000
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15 hours ago, Baz000 said:

Oh, so because it doesn't completely discharge it appears to the naked eyes to be continually illuminated and pulsing?

Yes, it’s more like a sawtooth. 

15 hours ago, Baz000 said:

So, does that mean the current implementation in DCS is not entirely 100% accurate?

No, it’s not. But it’s a nit. 

15 hours ago, Baz000 said:

When I was looking at Tomcat videos, I found one with I think a KA-6 and you got a good look at the tail light and immediately, I thought that is exactly like what the Tomcat in DCS looks like right now. At timestamp 11:12... I was like, that is the spitting image of how it looks in DCS.

That light is pulsing as well, to my eye, although it does have a faster discharge time than the Tomcats. 
 

15 hours ago, Baz000 said:
15 hours ago, Baz000 said:

Does this same capacitive effect happen on the TCS chin light too?

Yes

15 hours ago, Baz000 said:

I heard you spent many years working on Tomcats.

Yeah, VF-41 86’-90’, VF-101 90’-93’, VF-41 93’-95’

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Former USN Avionics Tech

VF-41 86-90, 93-95

VF-101 90-93

 

Heatblur Tomcat SME

 

I9-9900K | Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra | 32GB DDR4 3200 | Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe | RTX 2070 Super | TM Throttle | VPC Warbird Base TM F-18 Stick

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It does appear that the lights are WAY dimmer now since the 10/28 update.

They had gotten a lot better of the previous updates, but appear to be back to barely even visible right now.

And dont even worry to turn on the formation lights...  They are almost non existent.

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On 10/30/2021 at 2:45 AM, Baz000 said:

So, it isn't just some camera optics trick? The lights do actually stay continuously "on" and pulse? Rather than flash on-off like we have currently depicted in DCS? 

That's what I've seen, so far in every video I've seen with them on, and I'm not aware of any camera/optical effect that would cause a flashing light to appear continuously on, but pulsing in intensity.

17 hours ago, DERacing said:

It does appear that the lights are WAY dimmer now since the 10/28 update.

They had gotten a lot better of the previous updates, but appear to be back to barely even visible right now.

For me the lights are absolutely fine up close, the problem is how the lights scale at range and this seems like more of a core problem as far as lighting is concerned.

There needs to be a way of having lights scale such that they remain visible at expected distances, while making them look realistic up close. Right now this seems to be mutually exclusive in DCS (outside of the SoH/PG map), where if we have lights visible at distance, they look like fake, oversized, immersion breaking orbs up close and if we have lights that look realistic up close, then they become invisible from further away.

A system like the long-range laser lineup system on the supercarrier might be along the lines of what we could do with, where the light occupies the same on screen area, regardless of the distance (which should be the physical size of the light, maybe with a modifier as to not make it oversized).

17 hours ago, DERacing said:

And dont even worry to turn on the formation lights...  They are almost non existent.

Agreed, even up close they are barely visible


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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IRL the FAA has established standards on just how far away each different type of light should be visible, if it needs to be at certain angles or 360 degrees and if it is steady lit or flashing, etc. 

I know for night time FAA waiver for drone flying for example, you need a flashing light visible for a minimum of 3 statute miles.

"§ 107.29 Operation at night.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a small unmanned aircraft system at night unless -

(1) The remote pilot in command of the small unmanned aircraft has completed an initial knowledge test or training, as applicable, under § 107.65 after April 6, 2021; and

(2) The small unmanned aircraft has lighted anti-collision lighting visible for at least 3 statute miles that has a flash rate sufficient to avoid a collision. The remote pilot in command may reduce the intensity of, but may not extinguish, the anti-collision lighting if he or she determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to do so."

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