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TrackIR or FreeTrack


TrackIR or FreeTrack  

158 members have voted

  1. 1. TrackIR or FreeTrack

    • TrackIR
      118
    • FreeTrack
      38
    • other
      2


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@ ryuzu

 

1. A view control interface is very basic, receiving six numbers, nothing fancy or mysterious.

2. Mouse/keyboard/joystick controls use common open standards, view control can be the same.

3. Game developers implement support for free, there is no licensing fee, no money is exchanged, they could just as easily be implementing an open interface that everyone can use.

4. Game developers want maximum compatibility with computer hardware.

5. Users want to be able to use any hardware they have.

 

There is no 'denial of revenue' or 'leeching', just fair competition like in any other market.

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30 frames is already full smooth image, as I heard and read above human eye can't spot better feelings or I name it "smoother"...

 

Half right.

 

I can't be bothered to go into detail, but suffice to say any input device the higher the refresh rate the better. Your thinking about video filmed on a video camera, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Regards

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



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There is no 'denial of revenue' or 'leeching', just fair competition like in any other market.

 

 

It's effectivly software theft in a round about way. NP developed the output/input software to plug into there devices and no matter how simplistic you feel it is they did that work. If it's a doddle to do then it won't take the people at freetrack 5 minutes to replicate, unless of course NP have patented the tech...which I think they have. So Freetrack has to develop a different approach.

 

You cannot begrudge NP from protecting there investment. If ED/a third party had developed the software and NP told them/ED to only make it work with NP products then you have an argument, but this is not the case. NP is merely making there software only work with there hardware.

Regards

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



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I use FT and have stable 30 FPS. 30 frames is already full smooth image, as I heard and read above human eye can't spot better feelings or I name it "smoother"...

 

It's not true. 30FPS in games is very different than 24FPS in movies for example. You don't have a true motion blur in realtime computer graphics, that's why difference between 30 or 60 FPS in games is very big.

 

I agree with ryuzu. You can't blame NP that they don't want others to use their software. I guess they have invested a lot of money to produce their software for TrackIR, and now 'a competition' is just using it.


Edited by empeck
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It's not true. 30FPS in games is very different than 24FPS in movies for example. You don't have a true motion blur in realtime computer graphics, that's why difference between 30 or 60 FPS in games is very big.

 

Half right.

 

I can't be bothered to go into detail, but suffice to say any input device the higher the refresh rate the better. Your thinking about video filmed on a video camera, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

 

 

Ty for explanation, didn't know it has so big impact :)

Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D

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Ok let’s look at input/output and video as two separate entities.

 

As empeck says video has motion blur, this is effectively interpolating frames that aren't there in your mind. If you have two points A and B and they are half a mile apart. Now you travel between these two points at a constant fast speed and it only takes you two seconds to cover the distance.

 

For this example we will say we are recording this in PAL which is 24 frames per second, so over two seconds there are 48 frames. As your going a constant speed the video will have 48 individual frames of you evenly spaced out across the half mile. If these images are recorded on a video camera (CG in films/tv has this done at post/export stage) all these frames (pictures) of you will be blurred and you won't be able to discern any sort of definition of you. Because your brain can register but not discern what’s going on when the video is played back it looks smooth because you have motion blur.

 

Now if you rendered out the same thing in CG without motion blur you would have 48 perfect images in those two seconds. You could pause it anywhere and it would be just like looking at a photo. In order to effectively fake this blurring you have more and more frames going on in a second. For instance you might want to play an FPS at 120 frames per second to make it look smooth, that is 5 times what PAL 24 is running at but it has no blurring so it needs it to make it appear smooth. Certain games are now introducing motion blur into them which means that they can run at a lower frame rate and not look as slow, this however does not help with accuracy.

 

When you are watching a video you’re not interacting with it, it isn’t required to be running so fast that you can move something on screen and know when to stop moving it for it to be in the position you intended. If you move and it’s a slow frame rate, say around 10 frames per second your only being updated on the position your are in the move ten times per second. This is obviously far too low for say an fps as your trying to put the target over someone’s head who is running at you, but may be adequate for slightly changing your course at 10,000 feet in an empty sky. The higher the frame rate the more precision you have. This is the same for input devices, freetrack can only update the position your head is with the in game counterpart 30 times per second. This not only is a detriment to your accuracy but can also create lag and could induce motion sickness. Track IR runs at 120 frames per second, which is four times faster and is fast enough for your brain to perceive it as smooth just like it does when you’re watching graphics in an FPS game running at 120fps.

 

 

God I hope that makes sense, it’s late evening here and my brain is toast...oooh toast...I am hungry now :D

Regards

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



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@ ryuzu

 

1. A view control interface is very basic, receiving six numbers, nothing fancy or mysterious.

2. Mouse/keyboard/joystick controls use common open standards, view control can be the same.

3. Game developers implement support for free, there is no licensing fee, no money is exchanged, they could just as easily be implementing an open interface that everyone can use.

4. Game developers want maximum compatibility with computer hardware.

5. Users want to be able to use any hardware they have.

 

There is no 'denial of revenue' or 'leeching', just fair competition like in any other market.

 

1. As DTWD said - the fact remains NP did that work and provided the code to game devs for inclusion. Why doesn't FT produce such code and therefore remove any dependence on NP? That would negate this problem completely.

2. Well true, but take DirectX for example - that consistent interface is provided by MS and it's freely available for devs to use - why? Because MS gets revenue from users who buy windows. So that common interface is not "free" - it just appears so since there is no explicit price tag. The same is true of the TrackIR enabled games that FT relies on.

3. They aren't though - they're relying on work NP has done and NP relies on revenue from it. FT is leeching off that work as of now with DCS - as in 2, if FT provides a suitable interface acceptable to devs, then I'm sure it'll be used. Until then NP are the ones providing the software and they want some reimbursement.

4. N/A

5. If a user wants 6DOF support in DCS (and other games) today the only legitimate option is to use NP. Sadly there is no competition - FT is limiting the value of the 6DOF market and therefore inhibiting that competition further.

 

I wouldn't want it to come across that I love NP or anything. I just use the product - I'm not some kind of TIR evangelist and I'd be more than happy to see a cheaper alternative and some competition.

 

I just feel it is necessary to point out that NP isn't doing anything anti competitive - they developed the software that (in the case of DCS here) FT relies on - yet gets no revenue from FT users.

 

Further, those same FT users, rather than being grateful (or at least quiet) that they still get away with illegitimate use of NPs software, go even further and accuse NP of being anticompetitive!

 

FT uses that interface and therefore depends on NP providing the software to ED - but FT and their users provide nothing to NP by way of compensation - that is wrong and the onus is on FT to do something about it, not NaturalPoint.

 

r.

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So if there wouldn't be Microsoft ppl still wouldn't have OS?

If Wright Brothers wouldn't flew in air ppl still would use car than flights?

 

Of course not. If not NP, somebody else, if not Wirght, Microsoft ect. there will be always somebody else...

 

I use FT and have stable 30 FPS. 30 frames is already full smooth image, as I heard and read above human eye can't spot better feelings or I name it "smoother"...

 

I like FT - I'm not against NP but I don't like monopoly. When I was deciding what to get - build FT or buy TiR I chose FT due of really low costs. And this is most important to me.

 

One is sure - monopoly is bad. Everywhere. Hope there will be full support of 3rd hardware.

 

Yes there would be someone else in this hypothetical future you talk of - but there isn't. NP aren't the only ones who could've done it, but they're the only ones that *did* do it. The reason we have 6DOF in games as it is today is due to NP.

 

Besides which, if it's so obvious that 6DOF be implemented, why are NP still the only viable company in that area? If there's one thing we know, just as much as creating a market (like Ford) there are always plenty of people who'll jump in later and try and usurp it - why aren't there any viable competitors to NP? The best we have is FT which for some reason requires access to NP's code in order to do it - why doesn't FT provide a proper fully independent solution instead of requiring NP's code?

 

As for Monopolies, well yes the best Capitalist minds conclude they're bad, but lack of competition is never an acceptable reason for theft. If the 6DOF market was bigger and NP was making massive amounts of cash, may be another company would take notice and produce a genuine competitor product.

 

On your final point of low costs - FT is low cost because it uses NP's software and presence in games/sims like DCS. By way of analogy, if I plug an extension cable into someones mains electricity secretly and then let you plug into that extension for free, are you stealing electricty? I think it's clear that the household that is paying for the electricity is being robbed - NP in this case are that house, and FT is the extention cable provider.

 

r.

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Guys, guys, do some research before making wild generalizations.

 

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeTrack

 

FreeTrack has its own interface, plus works with SimConnect and FSUIPC and can emulate mouse, keyboard and joystick (better than TrackIR can).

 

From both a legal and ethical perspective, interfaces are there to be used by everyone, to prevent false monopolies such as this. If you're running an "IBM compatible" computer you should be well aware of this.

 

FreeTrack can use the Nintendo Wii Remote camera which runs at 100fps and uses less CPU than TrackIR. As well as the Playstation Eye camera that runs at up to 120fps.

 

Data is output at 120fps for a 30fps camera, so smoothness is not an issue, only responsiveness. And high responsiveness is not essential for head tracking, especially in flight sims.

 

FreeTrack tried to support TrackIR hardware, effectively helping NaturalPoint, but they wouldn't allow it.

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Yes there would be someone else in this hypothetical future you talk of - but there isn't. NP aren't the only ones who could've done it, but they're the only ones that *did* do it. The reason we have 6DOF in games as it is today is due to NP.

 

Besides which, if it's so obvious that 6DOF be implemented, why are NP still the only viable company in that area? If there's one thing we know, just as much as creating a market (like Ford) there are always plenty of people who'll jump in later and try and usurp it - why aren't there any viable competitors to NP? The best we have is FT which for some reason requires access to NP's code in order to do it - why doesn't FT provide a proper fully independent solution instead of requiring NP's code?

 

As for Monopolies, well yes the best Capitalist minds conclude they're bad, but lack of competition is never an acceptable reason for theft. If the 6DOF market was bigger and NP was making massive amounts of cash, may be another company would take notice and produce a genuine competitor product.

 

On your final point of low costs - FT is low cost because it uses NP's software and presence in games/sims like DCS. By way of analogy, if I plug an extension cable into someones mains electricity secretly and then let you plug into that extension for free, are you stealing electricty? I think it's clear that the household that is paying for the electricity is being robbed - NP in this case are that house, and FT is the extention cable provider.

 

r.

What they do is have their tracking software speak with the Track-IR interface etc rather than reinventing the wheel, if NP prevents that they'll probably look for other solutions.

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Guys, guys, do some research before making wild generalizations.

 

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeTrack

 

FreeTrack has its own interface, plus works with SimConnect and FSUIPC and can emulate mouse, keyboard and joystick (better than TrackIR can).

 

From both a legal and ethical perspective, interfaces are there to be used by everyone, to prevent false monopolies such as this. If you're running an "IBM compatible" computer you should be well aware of this.

 

FreeTrack can use the Nintendo Wii Remote camera which runs at 100fps and uses less CPU than TrackIR. As well as the Playstation Eye camera that runs at up to 120fps.

 

Data is output at 120fps for a 30fps camera, so smoothness is not an issue, only responsiveness. And high responsiveness is not essential for head tracking, especially in flight sims.

 

FreeTrack tried to support TrackIR hardware, effectively helping NaturalPoint, but they wouldn't allow it.

 

But in DCS (which is why we're here) there is only the NP interface which FT uses.

 

As another poster said - it's up to FT and ED to workout a means of implementing an FT solution from DCS.exe to hardware.

 

I'm all in favour of that! But until then, the accusations of anti-competitive measures by NP are unfounded and in fact FT are the ones stifling technology in this case by cutting revenues to those who have done the work.

 

At a guess the reason why FT isn't a full solution like NP, is precisely because the work to be done with devs to establish FT in the market and provide code and support would take so much time, it would then need to be paid for by users (exactly what NP does), thus making FT no longer a free utility. However this approach by FT would mean there was proper competition for this kind of tool.

 

r.

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What they do is have their tracking software speak with the Track-IR interface etc rather than reinventing the wheel, if NP prevents that they'll probably look for other solutions.

 

I understand exactly what FT does in terms of DCS interfacing.

 

Did you know that NP has implemented an encrypted interace to try and stop people using non-NP products with their code?

 

Did you also know that one of the posters here provides a hack which circumvents NPs encryption?

 

Did you also know that as a result, NP have asked for ED to include their proprietary dll in the StarForce library so that it cannot be modified in the Western release of BS?

 

So, if you plan to buy the Western release, you'll need to either use an NP solution (TrackIR), or hack BS so that StarForce is disabled, apply the encryption crack and then use FT. I'm sure you recognise the implications of the latter approach.

 

However, since FT users are all about saving money, I guess they'll stick with Russian version rather than support the work of people who provide products to us...

 

r.


Edited by ryuzu
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However, since FT users are all about saving money, I guess they'll stick with Russian version rather than support the work of people who provide products to us...

r.

 

Incorrect - its about saving BIG money. If you think it is not that big, I will give you my home address so you could send me TIR4pro as a gift. And who is support me in this scheme of yours??

 

Its not my fault that NP put such a huge price tag on their product, thus provoking "much cheaper solutions" (or whatever you wish to call it). If ED is able to keep thier price so low (25 USD for download RU edition), and I bet they put MUCH MUCH more programming effort into DCS then NP into TIR, there is no reason why users of a sim worth 25 USD and with zillion files should be "blackmailed" by a tiny app. It's like paying 1000 USD for some Windows XP/Vista tweak. My life will not end without it.

 

Anyway, stop moaning and look at the brighter side - if there was no FT, NP developers would have no reason to improve TIR. Existence of FT forces NP to improve their product. Same goes with any other product, from sneakers to PC hardware.

 

This reminds me of those comparisons with expensive and cheap watches. You buy one for 150 USD, and I buy another for 5, but I have to spend extra 5 to buy wrist strap and maybe another 5 to pay someone else to put that together. So, mine is a cheap copy of yours, but it shows the time correctly. For 15 USD. And, I'm not F1 driver or SEAL or SAS member, so I do not care about precision upt to 1/100.000 ms, 100 m depth or resistance to RPG.

I'm selling MiG-21 activation key.

Also selling Suncom F-15E Talon HOTAS with MIDI connectors, several sets.

Contact via PM.

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@ ryuzu

 

Did you know that encrypting an interface with no obvious purpose other than to harm interoperability is a violation of antitrust law? See USA vs Microsoft.

 

Don't worry ryuzu, the fixes are just temporary.

 

 

Renato71, would you be able to post a link to those RPG proof watches? Might come in handy next time I'm taking a stroll through southern Afghanistan. :D

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I completley agree with Renato. Why should I buy the best when I won't use it to it's full potential. It's like buying cell phones: Why should I spend 200 Euros to buy a cell phon with bluetooth, mp3 player and 3 megapixel camera, when I only need to call somebody or send an SMS and for that i just need a phone which costs 50 Euros? Or why should I get a Lamborghini Murcielago when a simple Yugo serves my needs (BTW we will miss you Yugo :)). Same goes for FT if i only need to control the view up, down, left and right, do I really need TIR? Also I see a lot of people making remarks that FreeTrack users are leeches. Some of you people don't get it: I don't need, or cannot afford the best, why not settle with a cheaper alternative? Just because I cannot afford the real deal does that mean I should convict myself not to use it at all? If NP is really concerned about their products they should keep making TIR cheaper and more advanced, to expect that they would just need to put something on the market and make money indefinitely is just foolish. Nature does not tolerate vacuum, if FT would not exist somebody else would be there to fill the role. Competiton is the driving force of the market, if it weren't for FreeTrack i think that TIR would today be a lot less sophisticated device than it is now.

 

P.S. I am NOT a criminal, or a cheapskate, I paid for my computer, and the DCS. Just because i don't need something or cannot afford it doesn't mean that somebody is better than me morally or otherwise, some of the people here made such allusions despite the fact that I (or the rest of FT supporting people) have never said anyting to insult them, but they keep insulting us.

Arg0n.


Edited by Arg0n
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Well in my opinion the more alternatives there are to TIR the better =)

I personally chosen the track ir because i gotten it cheap through a mass order back then in IL2 Forums and also because back then it was like the beginnings of free track and it didnt work well for me.

I dont know how good freetrack is right now since i own my TIR for a couple of years now and it never failed me.

Anyhow in my eyes, the more competition = the better (lower) the prices!

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[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



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Rest in Peace

(and hopefully get reborn in DCS!)

(Dream came true about 10 years later, now the Apache please :lol:)



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  • 3 weeks later...

i updated this poll to bring it up as there are some new members here. Feel free to vote still.

Thanks

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

C2D E4500@3GHz + Scythe Katana , 2GB/800, GF9600GT@720 (GV-NX96T512HP), Cyborg Evo, Freetrack (2.2), Samsung 20" @1680x1050, Fortron BSII 400W (peak 430W), Win7 HP x64

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I will get TIR when i have the money.

 

It feels a bit crappy though that its being built in to only use one particular brand of hardware. I never seen a game that only allows Saitek joysitcks for example. TIR is the dream of head tracking but it is also a bit expensive for many, including me at this time im in right now. So people that really want head tracking are being forced (you know what i mean) to buy NP's solution - wich is the most expensive one. Imagine if the Cougar HOTAS was the only one you could use in a sim. Many would be playing with keyboard, and maybe computer shops here and there would have been robbed. :D

 

I voted TIR as i want head tracking with BS.

 

Regards

Alex

Regards

Alex "Snuffer" D.

AMD FX8350 (8 core) 4.1GHZ ::: 8GB Dominator 1600mhz ::: GTX660 2GB ::: 2xHD ::: 24" ASUS

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