Can hardly be tracked by radar or IR

[Hummingbird]

So, for the last couple of years I've noticed this thing can hardly be tracked by either radar or IR, which is pretty far fetched. 

Choppers are notoriously reflective when it comes to radar signature, and I don't see how the Gazelle should be basically invisible to AIM-9M's let alone AIM-9X's..

Furthermore IF you somehow manage to shoot one down, the kill never counts.

Will any of this ever be fixed?

Edited November 2, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Ramsay]

12 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

So, for the last couple of years I've noticed this thing can hardly be tracked by either radar or IR, which is pretty far fetched. 

It's a small, single engine helicopter that's often nap of the earth and mixed in with ground clutter, it likely shouldn't be "easy to track".

Never had an issue getting shot down in the Gazelle myself and I've certainly shot down AI Gazelles in MP with the Mirage.

These days, I mostly fly other modules due to the long ingress times of the Gazelle and more often die to NOE CFIG than to other players/AI.

It has an excellent RWR and radio contact with AWACS, making it easy to recognise when you've been illuminated by a radar and dip below a ridge line to break it's line of sight. This is very different from the Huey, where you might not recognise there's a threat (without using the F10 map)

If you think you've found an issue, please post a track.

Not sure if MP kill tracking is an ED or PC problem though, so it's worth a bump as I know it annoys PvP players shot down by the Mistral.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Ramsay

[Oceandar]

Furthermore IF you somehow manage to shoot one down, the kill never counts.

You have to make sure its destroyed. I shot few gazelles in GS server with 9x and got no score because I only damaged them not untill it destroyed completely. It somehow different from other helos. It actually damaged and managed to land then the player simply resloted and respawned. Send them 2 missiles next time.

[Hummingbird]

9 hours ago, Ramsay said:

It's a small, single engine helicopter that's often nap of the earth and mixed in with ground clutter, it likely shouldn't be "easy to track".

 

Helis are usually very easy to track, even whilst sitting on the ground, due to their spinning rotor blades acting like a large reflective disc, hence why helis as a rule aren't sent into airspace that isn't dominated by friendly airforces; they're quite simply easy pickings for enemy fighters.

Thus I don't see why the Gazelle should all of a sudden go completely invisible to both radar and IR when either hovering close to the ground or landed if the rotors are still spinning.

 

[Ramsay]

1 hour ago, Hummingbird said:

Helis are usually very easy to track, even whilst sitting on the ground, due to their spinning rotor blades acting like a large reflective disc, hence why helis as a rule aren't sent into airspace that isn't dominated by friendly airforces; they're quite simply easy pickings for enemy fighters.

Thus I don't see why the Gazelle should all of a sudden go completely invisible to both radar and IR when either hovering close to the ground or landed if the rotors are still spinning.

Radar

As I'm sure you are aware, radar backscatter from helicopter blades isn't modelled by any radar in DCS* (I'm not sure why you are singling out the Gazelle ?).

As blade backscatter isn't modelled, it's relatively easy for a DCS helicopter to break a radar "lock" by notching or getting lost in ground clutter, therefore once it's detected, I'll get closer and switch to A2A IR missiles, however doing so, does mean I'm fighting the helicopter in it's own domain and opening myself up to ground fire and manpads. 

This is how a 1996 Boeing Patent describes helicopter radar detection

Quote

A hovering or slowly flying helicopter has a radar return made up of two parts. One constantly changes with each new position of the rotor blade, and a second does not. This makes it difficult to distinguish the helicopter's radar return both from that of background clutter and from that of ground military vehicles. Even when it is clear that some sort of target is standing out from the background clutter, it is difficult for a military commander to identify it. The prior art has considered the radar return of an enemy attack helicopter which is hovering slightly off the ground to be not easily distinguished from the radar return of, for example, an enemy armored personnel carrier (APC), or a decoy. The helicopter is usually the greater threat, and is always a different threat. The ability to detect and classify a helicopter would greatly enhance the commander's battlefield control.

To paraphrase the rest of the patent, helicopters are detected in a similar manner to other ground targets and a Fast Fourier Transform used to detect the signature pulses from the rotor blades, thus differentiating helicopter signatures from other ground targets.

The rotor blade radar returns don't sound that much different to other ground returns ?

IR Emissions

DCS's IR emissions have two levels, 'nominal/running'  and 'afterburner', as DCS helicopters inc. the Gazelle, don't have an afterburner , they always emits the same IR signature hot or cold (modified by aspect, range and los).

The usual reason to lose an IR lock is a change in aspect or break in line of sight, it's been my experience that Gazelles don't go "invisible" without a reason.

* I haven't tested Heatblur's F-14

Edited November 2, 2021 by Ramsay
Add extract from Boeing Patent

[GGTharos]

40 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

Radar

As I'm sure you are aware, radar backscatter from helicopter blades isn't modelled by any radar in DCS* (I'm not sure why you are singling out the Gazelle ?).

That's definitely correct.

40 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

This is how a 1996 Boeing Patent describes helicopter radar detection

They can describe whatever they want.  The fact is that this F-15E that bombed a heli did so while tracking it in A2A from 50nm away, including when it was sitting on the ground with rotors spinning.  The never took the radar off AA mode.   When close enough they switched to bombs when the pod showed the heli sitting on the ground.

40 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

IR Emissions

DCS's IR emissions have two levels, 'nominal/running'  and 'afterburner', as DCS helicopters inc. the Gazelle, don't have an afterburner , they always emits the same IR signature hot or cold (modified by aspect, range and los).

Helicopter's 'immunity' to IR in game is another well known issue.  They shouldn't be harder to detect than a cold jet from the front, but they are.

[Hummingbird]

To add to this I remember a talk with a couple of Danish F-16 sticks who recounted how they easily picked up coastguard Sikorsky's when they were idling on their helipads from some 40 or so km away.  

 

Also the Boing patent description seems to emphasize the difficulty in ID'ing a low flying heli, not in detecting it. In DCS it's the latter which is the problem.