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Landing - Carrier speed


Taz1004

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The issues arising with slow boats might also be linked to the fact that you'd usually have a fairly constant wind over deck to work with - either produced by the boat steaming forward, by the wind actually blowing down the deck or mostly by a combination of the two. That would help a lot in standardizing where you're rolling out into the groove. Either by the boat steaming away from you, or by the wind have you travel downwind. Or by a combination of the two.

Most mission-designers probably won't care for the wind in the equation, as that has you running into a different problem: We're not normally operating cyclic deck on online servers, but the boat is usually steaming into the wind until it either runs into terrain (and hence has to perform a turn) or until it runs out of map. If it turns, that will mess up your wind over deck altogether. Recovering on a boat that has the wind coming from the wrong side is fun for a change, but it really, really blows. Pun intended.

Hence, most mission buildrs probably say "screw it" with the wind, and just have the boat make it's own wind on a calm map.


Edited by Bremspropeller
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@Taz there is more to it then above really. 
 

First of all as you probably know the carrier aims for a WOD (wind over deck) of 25/30ish knots. 
So with 10 knots of real wind the carrier will have to make the extra 15 knots to create the WOD

with 5 kts of real wind the carrier will sail around 20 ish knots to create WOD

So what If the wind normal wind is already 30-35kts? Obviously the carrier won’t sail backwards, and it also cant stay stationary as it requires at least 3kts to allow the rudder to be active for steering. 

Obviously  the more wind the carrier will have to make, the bigger your drift correction in the groove will be, equally the bigger your angle will be between the planes longitudinal axis and the centreline. However, never significant enough to cause large deviations as normally the crosswind shouldn’t be more then 5ish knots maximum. 

If the WOD is more then optimum chances are you will have to start your approach turn before reaching the 180, landing with flaps half or a combination of both. Also likely the basic angle will be set to 4 degrees. (Not possible in DCS).


Landing with a WOD of 11kts is just not realistic and none of your  numbers would work, it happens In DCS but never irl. The WOD is always roughly the same and when it’s more then expected you would know as the weather report during the brief will make you aware of the conditions at the end of your cycle.
 

So the scenario you talk about:

if you start the turn at position x you will end up further behind the boat when it goes 22kts then when it only goes 11kts is correct. Yes then you will be further off extended centreline the quicker the boat goes if you use exactly the same technique without correcting. However this very unrealistic, as you alway aim for this 15-18s groove length. At the end of the day you have to be a pilot and make it work. 
 

If you have 5kts tailwind in the approach turn or 5kts headwind in the approach turn it will both put you in complete different places if you don’t do anything about it. Equally wind from the left will help you stay on centreline whilst starboard wind will make the effect even worse. 
 

finally don’t just aim for the crotch of the ship. If you keep it there, then eventually you land pointing towards it. The more wind the boat has to make, the more right you have to correct. With 25kts natural wind the correction will be less. Correct to stay on centerline. Yes often the crotch is sufficient, but understand the correction required. And and at some stage, ease off the correction as you get closer to the deck. 

Hope that helps a bit


 


 

 


 

 


Edited by Pieterras
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2 hours ago, Pieterras said:

@Taz there is more to it then above really. 
 

First of all as you probably know the carrier aims for a WOD (wind over deck) of 25/30ish knots. 
So with 10 knots of real wind the carrier will have to make the extra 15 knots to create the WOD

with 5 kts of real wind the carrier will sail around 20 ish knots to create WOD

So what If the wind normal wind is already 30-35kts? Obviously the carrier won’t sail backwards, and it also cant stay stationary as it requires at least 3kts to allow the rudder to be active for steering. 

Obviously  the more wind the carrier will have to make, the bigger your drift correction in the groove will be, equally the bigger your angle will be between the planes longitudinal axis and the centreline. However, never significant enough to cause large deviations as normally the crosswind shouldn’t be more then 5ish knots maximum. 

If the WOD is more then optimum chances are you will have to start your approach turn before reaching the 180, landing with flaps half or a combination of both. Also likely the basic angle will be set to 4 degrees. (Not possible in DCS).


Landing with a WOD of 11kts is just not realistic and none of your  numbers would work, it happens In DCS but never irl. The WOD is always roughly the same and when it’s more then expected you would know as the weather report during the brief will make you aware of the conditions at the end of your cycle.
 

So the scenario you talk about:

if you start the turn at position x you will end up further behind the boat when it goes 22kts then when it only goes 11kts is correct. Yes then you will be further off extended centreline the quicker the boat goes if you use exactly the same technique without correcting. However this very unrealistic, as you alway aim for this 15-18s groove length. At the end of the day you have to be a pilot and make it work. 
 

If you have 5kts tailwind in the approach turn or 5kts headwind in the approach turn it will both put you in complete different places if you don’t do anything about it. Equally wind from the left will help you stay on centreline whilst starboard wind will make the effect even worse. 
 

finally don’t just aim for the crotch of the ship. If you keep it there, then eventually you land pointing towards it. The more wind the boat has to make, the more right you have to correct. With 25kts natural wind the correction will be less. Correct to stay on centerline. Yes often the crotch is sufficient, but understand the correction required. And and at some stage, ease off the correction as you get closer to the deck. 

Hope that helps a bit

Thanks.  I know it's not realistic but I was trying to keep wind out of the equation to simplify my question.  Wanted to focus on the carrier speed only.  And the screenshots I posted are not what I usually do.  I was told to ignore the carrier speed and only focus on the crotch and that's what I tried in those shots.  Basically, I was asking about lining up based on carrier speed but I was getting tutorial AFTER lining up.  I tried to expalin that with the diagram but again was told to "just try it".  Which is what I did.

I've been practicing at 20kts over 100 times since this post.  And to me, it's still a big difference between 20kts and 27kts.  At 27kts, even after I'm lined up to centerline after rollout, AND make corrections so FPM is at the crotch all the way to landing, runway would still be in slight angle by the time I land altho not as much as before.  Alternatively, if I aim for where the runway would be rather than where it is throughout final leg, I can land at 27kts perfectly aligned.  But this is because I know the speed already.

I'd be great if you can actually help me with a track file at 27kts.

Quote

However this very unrealistic, as you alway aim for this 15-18s groove length.

And how do you achieve that consistently between 11kts and 27kts carrier if you are not aware of its speed?


Edited by Taz1004
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11 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

Thanks.  I know it's not realistic but I was trying to keep wind out of the equation to simplify my question.  Wanted to focus on the carrier speed only.  And the screenshots I posted are not what I usually do.  I was told to ignore the carrier speed and only focus on the crotch and that's what I tried in those shots.  Basically, I was asking about lining up based on carrier speed but I was getting tutorial AFTER lining up.  I tried to expalin that with the diagram but again was told to "just try it".  Which is what I did.

I've been practicing at 20kts over 100 times since this post.  And to me, it's still a big difference between 20kts and 27kts.  At 27kts, even after I'm lined up to centerline after rollout, AND make corrections so FPM is at the crotch all the way to landing, runway would still be in slight angle by the time I land altho not as much as before.  Alternatively, if I aim for where the runway would be rather than where it is throughout final leg, I can land at 27kts perfectly aligned.  But this is because I know the speed already.

I'd be great if you can actually help me with a track file at 27kts.

And how do you achieve that consistently between 11kts and 27kts carrier if you are not aware of its speed?

 

Simple answer You can’t, 

That is the exact reason that the WOD is ideally 25/30 knots. Equally you can’t keep the wind out of the equation as you fly in relation to air, not towards the ground or the ship…

But if you want an answer to what you ask “how to achieve a consistent 15-18sec groove length” in 0 wind conditions whilst not knowing the carrier speed. The answer is you can’t. In that case you will have to know the carrier speed to make your corrections from the 180 position to make this consistent groove length. you will just have to look at the platcam look at the speeds there and make corrections to achieve it then. 
 

I have no trackfile available but my video should give you many answers and hopefully make you a better ball flying 

 

 

 

 

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In short, with no wind: The faster the carrier moves, the more you have to crab.

http://www.blueridgejournal.com/navy/lingo.htm#Crab

Aiming for the crotch works fine under most conditions, but when the carrier is moving fast (somewhere above 20 knots, 'ish), crotch-crabbing just won't be sufficient. You'll have to do more crabbing; how much? Don't know/depends on the condition. Like Pieter says: Do pilot stuff and make it work.

 

Here's an example where Im approaching a carrier which is doing 29-30 knots, no wind.

As you can see, entering the groove, I start up a little bit left of linup, but within just seconds I drift far left of lineup. I try to compensate by doing more crabbing. Which works, to some degree. But! When Im am In Close you see that my excessive crabbing has led me to overshoot the linup and I end up right of linup At Ramp and In Wires.

 

 

So, all in all, crab at the start of the groove, and the then crab less and less as you close in.

With a carrier doing up to 30 knots, you might have to crab as much as up towards the Island, and then slowly work it from there towards centerline as you close in.

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16 minutes ago, TimRobertsen said:

With a carrier doing up to 30 knots, you might have to crab as much as up towards the Island, and then slowly work it from there towards centerline as you close in.

Thanks, that's consistent with my findings.  And after lots of practice at 20-27kts, I learned to estimate the carrier speed based on the distance to the carrier after rolling out on final leg.  And compensate using your method.

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Regarding WOD and the crosswind component, one thing I haven't found definitive info on is this:

Is the WOD blowing reciprocal BRC, or reciprocal FB? Over social media I've read everything from down the center of the deck, down the angled deck, to angled left of the angled deck to minimize crosswind component, and I can't find this specified in any publicly available primary sources like NATOPS.

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2 hours ago, Nealius said:

Regarding WOD and the crosswind component, one thing I haven't found definitive info on is this:

Is the WOD blowing reciprocal BRC, or reciprocal FB? Over social media I've read everything from down the center of the deck, down the angled deck, to angled left of the angled deck to minimize crosswind component, and I can't find this specified in any publicly available primary sources like NATOPS.

FB is the definitive answer. 

2 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

Thanks, that's consistent with my findings.  And after lots of practice at 20-27kts, I learned to estimate the carrier speed based on the distance to the carrier after rolling out on final leg.  And compensate using your method.

The only thing I don’t understand is why you care so much for the entire initial question. If I see a sever with a WOD less then optimal I.e 11kts I won’t even bother 

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5 hours ago, Pieterras said:

FB is the definitive answer. 

The only thing I don’t understand is why you care so much for the entire initial question. If I see a sever with a WOD less then optimal I.e 11kts I won’t even bother 

Sever?  I you mean server, initial question was about single player.  I don't play multiplayer.  And I don't open mission editor everytime to check carrier speed.

And if there is wind and for WOD to be constant, shouldn't the carrier be moving one way only?

The missions I asked about in initial question had 11kts carrier with 12kts headwind which is default DCS supercarrier mission template.  And campaign I downloaded had 27kts carrier with 15kts headwind.  Can you calculate WOD without carrier speed?  Can I trust that all mission designers would adhere to 25-50 WOD?  And do RL carrier always maintain 25-30kts WOD?

Once again, WOD is different question than what I'm asking.  Look at what happened to Stearmandriver.  He tried to match WOD with faster/slower wind at different carrier speed.  And the position of carrier was still different.  That is what I'm asking.


Edited by Taz1004
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1 hour ago, Taz1004 said:

Sever?  I you mean server, initial question was about single player.  I don't play multiplayer.  And I don't open mission editor everytime to check carrier speed.

And if there is wind and for WOD to be constant, shouldn't the carrier be moving one way only?

The missions I asked about in initial question had 11kts carrier with 12kts headwind which is default DCS supercarrier mission template.  And campaign I downloaded had 27kts carrier with 15kts headwind.  Can you calculate WOD without carrier speed?  Can I trust that all mission designers would adhere to 25-50 WOD?  And do RL carrier always maintain 25-30kts WOD?

Once again, WOD is different question than what I'm asking.  Look at what happened to Stearmandriver.  He tried to match WOD with faster/slower wind at different carrier speed.  And the position of carrier was still different.  That is what I'm asking.

 

Have you read anything I have written to  you ?? 

Yes real life carriers ALWAYS have a WOD of around 25-30Kts... Unless the natural wind is more then 27kts then it might be a little more.. 
You dont have to know the carrier speed the SUPER CARRIER PLATCAM  LEFT ALT + F9 gives  you exactly the WOD.. the carrier speed is irrelevant... 

Anyway I know what you're asking,, your question has been answered 4 times by 4 different people, still your question doesn't make sense... 

Your problem is that you use the same technique for different conditions.. and once you are in the groove you're not correcting any longer making you drift left of centerline every single time... Equally, you seem to hawk the deck in your photos instead of flying Ball. line-up, AOA all the time... 

Watch my video and it explains exactly what to do ... its as simple as that (in DCS at least)


Edited by Pieterras
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18 minutes ago, Pieterras said:

Anyway I know what you're asking,, your question has been answered 4 times by 4 different people, still your question doesn't make sense... 

Lol, I know what you wrote too.  I was simply saying it's irrelevant to my "initial" question.  As YOU said, the question that doesn't make sense has been answered by 4 different people.

Quote

Your problem is that you use the same technique for different conditions.. and once you are in the groove you're not correcting any longer making you drift left of centerline every single time...

But alas... you did NOT understand my question nor read anything "I" said lol.


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An easy way to find WOD without using the editor or doing math is to jump into the LSO view and look at the platcam.  WOD is shown graphically on the outline of the ship, and crosswind correction is shown too.

The point of disconnect here I think is that there is no magic formula to make your approach turn work perfectly. Even if you DO know the speed of the carrier, there's enough difference in your abeam distance, groundspeed, wind variation etc. that this will never be a static exercise. You have to acquire the deck visually at the 90 and adjust as necessary from there.  That's what you saw me do in my tracks.

This applies on normal runways too of course; the runway itself isn't moving but wind effect on your aircraft is constantly changing through the turn / with altitude, often varying significantly as you get down into the surface friction layer. 

Flying just isn't a static, set it and forget it activity no matter what you do, so there's just no point in trying to nail it down to that level.  One of my favorite things to do in little planes is just grind around the pattern doing stop n gos, pulling the power to idle at the numbers and using a slipping turn from the 180 to the numbers to play drag and wind correction to a power off landing.  A Stearman comes down like a brick in a full slip so it's a blast... and more than once I've been asked by Cessna drivers how it's even possible to slip while turning.   🤦 

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13 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Flying just isn't a static, set it and forget it activity no matter what you do... You have to acquire the deck visually at the 90 and adjust as necessary from there.  That's what you saw me do in my tracks.

Right.  And THAT was the question.  How do you determine the condition so I can correct it.  Do you turn early or do you correct after 90 degrees.  And this question that doesn't make sense has been answered.  I'm asking about how to correct it and some people just teling me I'm not correcting.

13 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

An easy way to find WOD without using the editor or doing math is to jump into the LSO view and look at the platcam.

That would be cheating too tho no?


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1 hour ago, Taz1004 said:

And THAT was the question.  How do you determine the condition so I can correct it.  Do you turn early or do you correct after 90 degrees.  And this question that doesn't make sense has been answered.  I'm asking about how to correct it and some people just teling me I'm not correcting.

Maybe a matter of technique here; my thought would be to see and correct from the 90 onwards by adjusting bank angle as necessary. 

 

1 hour ago, Taz1004 said:

That would be cheating too tho no?

Well, I guess that's up to the individual. I'd argue not, because as Pieterras said, if there were going to be abnormal conditions for your recovery, they'd be briefed. If they developed after airborne, I figure someone would tell you. The LSO reports wind over deck in his "roger ball" on case 3s; no reason they wouldn't do that on a case 1 as well if conditions dictate. Basically, if something is weird you'd know. So I don't feel like looking at the plat is cheating, but... up to you. 

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13 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Maybe a matter of technique here; my thought would be to see and correct from the 90 onwards by adjusting bank angle as necessary. 

 

Well, I guess that's up to the individual. I'd argue not, because as Pieterras said, if there were going to be abnormal conditions for your recovery, they'd be briefed. If they developed after airborne, I figure someone would tell you. The LSO reports wind over deck in his "roger ball" on case 3s; no reason they wouldn't do that on a case 1 as well if conditions dictate. Basically, if something is weird you'd know. So I don't feel like looking at the plat is cheating, but... up to you. 

It won’t be cheating as @Stearmandriver said.. IRL the WOD is always aimed to be optimal so you don’t have to be told or go and ask. 

+ You know from the weather brief what conditions will be on launch and recovery. 
 

You never correct in the turn towards the 90. As I showed in my video. The only thing that might be required is that during strong and heavy winds 30kts+ you might have to start turning before the 180. But the technique will be the same. Then at the 90 be 500ft. If you are then low on the ball your Long in the groove if your high on the call your too close. 
 

make corrections from the 90 and aim for a good start. Use ICLS to your advantage but only for your glidepath not for the lineup. 
 

you can’t ignore the wind. Carrier speed is irrelevant in all this stuff it is WOD that will determine your start position. 

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In my missions i have always WOD at ideal speed, sometimes i change the wind and carrier speed but maintain always WOD 30kts, i really never thought about the carrier speed until this thread. Its irrelevant. The deck is always moving right i just need to make little corrections to adjust my lineup. The lineup lights are a great help.

If for some reason i use a pre-made mission by someone the first thing i do is check if the WOD is correct. That´s it.

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1 hour ago, fagulha said:

In my missions i have always WOD at ideal speed, sometimes i change the wind and carrier speed but maintain always WOD 30kts, i really never thought about the carrier speed until this thread. Its irrelevant. The deck is always moving right i just need to make little corrections to adjust my lineup. The lineup lights are a great help.

If for some reason i use a pre-made mission by someone the first thing i do is check if the WOD is correct. That´s it.

Thank god ! someone gets it 😄 

 

Line-up difficulties.png

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On 11/2/2021 at 4:28 PM, Taz1004 said:

How do you compensate for carrier speed when landing?  Been practicing on single missions where carrier speed is 11kts and a mission I downloaded had it moving at 27kts.  And find myself misaligned by the time I land.  I could still land but since I'm misaligned, taking off again after missing the wire would be difficult.

Even when compensating, how do you find out their speed?  They don't tell me their speed and only way to tell AFAIK is from F10 map.

Trying to process all that's been said.  

Reference you initial question:  I think what's being missed possibly is the relationship between speed of ship and speed of approaching aircraft.  
Meaning a difference of 10 knots of boat speed will be almost imperceptible to an aircraft on approach at 130kias.  For example, a 13 knot change in boat speed would be a roughly 10 percent change in your crab angle.  If you are crabbing 5 with 23 knots, it's now 5.5 degrees at 10 knots boat speed.  

I ran into this arguing with an instructor pilot many years ago.  The degree of crab has more to do with your speed than the boat or wind.  The faster you are, the less crab required and vice versa.  He was convinced and f-16 at 400 knots needed the same crab angle as a cessna at 120 to compensate for wind.  It's just not the case.  Slightly different scenario, but the same principle is at work.  The difference between 10 and 20 knots of boat speed will only be detectable by someone with a lot of facetime in the bird.

Regarding landing in a crab.  I'm not sure if that's what you are holding all the way to touchdown, or if you mean on final, but I *assume* any crosswind component should be corrected for prior to touchdown.  Maybe they touchdown with a crab to get all three on the ground simultaneously.  My assumption, is they cross control nearly every landing to some extent because, the BRC versus boat angle means every landing is a slight crosswind landing to a moving target. 

Either speed, or any speed above zero, and you are now aiming for a moving target, meaning you want to point the VV where the ship will be, not where it is.


Edited by cw4ogden
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3 minutes ago, cw4ogden said:

I could still land but since I'm misaligned, taking off again after missing the wire would be difficult.

This would be why I suspect they don't land in a crab.  Upon touchdown, a crabbing aircraft will right itself with the direction of travel, but it takes a half second or so and it induces transient forces in the aircraft that might make boltering difficult.  

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On 11/2/2021 at 5:30 PM, Taz1004 said:

I'm not sure if I'm not explaining correctly but seems like you're not understanding the question.  Let's say I expect the carrier to be 11kts.  But it was actually moving at 22kts.  Bit simplified but below is what would happen.  My heading at the time of landing would be 5' off BRC rather than 10' (would be even less since I'd be chasing it in a curve but let's keep it simple).  And if I have to take off again, I'd be hitting the corner as the end of red line shows.

 

Last piece being I think you are figuring the angles here using pure crosswind component.  Meaning if the increase in speed of the carrier translated into pure croswind, yes it might have a 5 degree or so affect, but it's nor pure crosswind.  BRC and runway heading are almost the same.  So a 10 knot increase in wind is only a fraction of that in increase to the crosswind component, because the runway is going basically the same direction as the ship.  

The math would probably be closer approximate 1/2, to one degree of correction for a 10 knot change in boat speed.  I'd have to do the math to be sure, but that is going to be close.  One degree or so, not several degrees of crosstrack, from a speed increase of the ship.  Because only a sliver of that increase in speed is coming at you sideways.


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You can use a crosswind component chart, or some geometry to figure out the component of crosswind that will result from increasing the ship's speed.

Put the speed increase on the vertical axis.  Put the difference between BRC and runway heading is the angle you use.  

 

You have to get into the corner of the graph, but a 10 knot speed increase by the boat would result in about a 2 knot increase in sidewind component.  Almost impercebtible at 130 knot touchdown.

Capture.JPG

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1 hour ago, cw4ogden said:

Trying to process all that's been said.  

Reference you initial question:  I think what's being missed possibly is the relationship between speed of ship and speed of approaching aircraft.  
Meaning a difference of 10 knots of boat speed will be almost imperceptible to an aircraft on approach at 130kias.  For example, a 13 knot change in boat speed would be a roughly 10 percent change in your crab angle.  If you are crabbing 5 with 23 knots, it's now 5.5 degrees at 10 knots boat speed.  

I ran into this arguing with an instructor pilot many years ago.  The degree of crab has more to do with your speed than the boat or wind.  The faster you are, the less crab required and vice versa.  He was convinced and f-16 at 400 knots needed the same crab angle as a cessna at 120 to compensate for wind.  It's just not the case.  Slightly different scenario, but the same principle is at work.  The difference between 10 and 20 knots of boat speed will only be detectable by someone with a lot of facetime in the bird.

Regarding landing in a crab.  I'm not sure if that's what you are holding all the way to touchdown, or if you mean on final, but I *assume* any crosswind component should be corrected for prior to touchdown.  Maybe they touchdown with a crab to get all three on the ground simultaneously.  My assumption, is they cross control nearly every landing to some extent because, the BRC versus boat angle means every landing is a slight crosswind landing to a moving target. 

Either speed, or any speed above zero, and you are now aiming for a moving target, meaning you want to point the VV where the ship will be, not where it is.

 

Oh my god,,,

I should detach myself from this conversation.
This will only add to the confusion and has nothing to do with the question. Having flown for a living many years, I have rarely noticed much difference in crab angle caused by approach speed and have flown cessnas, fast birds and airliners.. all the roughly same irrelevant of your speed. Equally there is hardly crosswind on the boat. You are making corrections to compensate for the drift of the centreline not really to correct for crosswind. Equally we should talk apparent winds as we are talking moving object.
 

Equally the boat speed is irrelevant as they keep a constant WOD. To me none of what you wrote makes much sense in relation to carrier ops. Or it does but it is hardly noticeable.


Edited by Pieterras
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