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Is there some kind of demo or try-out day for helicopters?


JetCat

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Hi,

I am not yet convinced by helicopters (they were really a pain to fly in FSX!) but the Hind-D and the Apache are still very interesting. Is there some kind of demo or try-out for helicopters planned to be able to try flying for ten minutes or half an hour before buying? To feel the flight dynamics myself with my own equipment would be more helpful than watching YouTube videos seeing absolute ace-pilots with hundreds of virtual helicopter hours steering with 500€ or more expert throttle and joystick sets. 😉 (I have a rather cheap joystick.)

Have a beautyful week, JetCat

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Based on my experience with pre-ordering the Hind and then seeing the performance I decinded to NEVER pre-order anything. The try for free program is best for this (it was not available at the time Hind came out).

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My most rewarding thing thus far in my "DCS career" has been learning helicopters. I struggled for a while with the Huey (the best helicopter to get the basics down, I believe), having a hard time transitioning from forward flight to a hover and landing. Then I bought the Hind and trained hard during the summer. The Hind thought me the value of patience. You can´t rush things in the Hind - not as a noob anyway. After feeling fairly competent (not crashing ALL the time) I got in to the Huey once again, and found the transitions fairly easy all of a sudden. 

So I guess a few of the lessions I have learnt are:

  • Helicopters require training, and more training. They are hard.
  • Have patience. You can´t go att full speed and then land on a dime in a few seconds. Not initially anyway. Give yourself plenty of time and space to slow down into transitional lift and hover.
  • Helicopters are fun!

 

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You won't get a good impression of a helicopter in half an hour, only frustration. As mentioned try a longer period for an hour a day or so. A helicopter is the most complex machine on earth to be controlled. For its 6 degrees of freedom it has 4 control inputs that, on top of it, have coupling effects on its dynamics. No, you will not be able to handle that in half an hour.

But that is part of the fun (or challenge). Take your time! You don't need expensive hardware either. A cheap joystick with yaw control should be sufficient to start.


Edited by Wrcknbckr
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If you want to get into helicopter flying, I'd recommend to start with the Mi-8. Use the two weeks and learn to fly it. The Hind is sexier, but for learning the visibility from the hip-cockpit is far better. I own all but like 3-4 modules, but the Mi-8 was the most rewarding experience of all of them!

And don't let yourself be scared away from Early Access. When you manage your expectations and educate yourself on what it delivers and what it doesn't, you get a lot of fun out of it. The developement of such complex modules is long and to be able to fly it already, whilst it's in the making, is far better, than waiting another two years! IMHO!!!

EDIT: Helicopters in general and the Hip in particular can be overwhelming at first, but there are great video tutorials out there!


Edited by Hiob
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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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All with all modules in DCS the best one to get is the one you are most interested in. I always fancied flying helicopters so I bought  the huey. It was hard, very hard. I never really seemed to get it and always ended up flying a fixed wing instead. Hind came out and I really like the look of that helicopter, bought it. It is also hard but because I really like it I kept going and actually started to get somewhere. I still have hardly anytime in the huey but I can manage that now, because I learned in the hind! I still only really fly he hind though because its all I really want to spend the time in.

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34 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

All with all modules in DCS the best one to get is the one you are most interested in. I always fancied flying helicopters so I bought  the huey. It was hard, very hard. I never really seemed to get it and always ended up flying a fixed wing instead. Hind came out and I really like the look of that helicopter, bought it. It is also hard but because I really like it I kept going and actually started to get somewhere. I still have hardly anytime in the huey but I can manage that now, because I learned in the hind! I still only really fly he hind though because its all I really want to spend the time in.

Yup i  like your thinking I bought the black shark then bs2 and have not spent much time in it learning as the heli I always wanted to spend time in is the almighty APACHE, so me thinks I am gonna take your approach and learn the ah64 and if I don't come right I would eventually come to the realization that the fascination [with the ah64] is not to fly it but to admire it

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb JetCat:

Hi,

I am not yet convinced by helicopters (they were really a pain to fly in FSX!) but the Hind-D and the Apache are still very interesting. Is there some kind of demo or try-out for helicopters planned to be able to try flying for ten minutes or half an hour before buying? To feel the flight dynamics myself with my own equipment would be more helpful than watching YouTube videos seeing absolute ace-pilots with hundreds of virtual helicopter hours steering with 500€ or more expert throttle and joystick sets. 😉 (I have a rather cheap joystick.)

Have a beautyful week, JetCat

like others said, you can try every module in dcs for 2 weeks, completely free! so, choose you favourite module you would like to try out, go to youtube and find your first basic information. after that, try to find a basic binding profile for your particular joystick and throttle. read into the controls and find out what you need. take 2 weeks off from work. start the trial, download it, set your bindings, and let the fun begin. 🙂

what i want to say, you need preparation and a good amount of time. in 30minutes, you cannot do anything, thats not how A) helicopters and B) dcs modules in general work.

 


Edited by NWGJulian
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8 hours ago, St4rgun said:

Based on my experience with pre-ordering the Hind and then seeing the performance I decinded to NEVER pre-order anything. The try for free program is best for this (it was not available at the time Hind came out).

Maybe I sounded a bit harsh on the preorder thing, it was not against the helos, but the unoptimized software in VR (for the Hind specifically on my existing hardware).

But on the helicopter topics: I started with Ka-50 flying in 2D back then. When I switched to VR I flew fixed wing only and then came to the same curiosity that you have. Then I bought the Huey but tried only once, then bought the Mi8 without flying.

I pre-ordered the Hind because of the coolness factor then tried it 2-3 times and horrifyed by the VRS deaths. I was unable to fly it.

Then came the breakthrough: I bought the "Oilfield" campaign for the Mi8 and started to INVEST hours, days, weeks into learning how to fly a Mi8.

Right now I'm still very beginner with 46 flight hours and 200 landings with the Mi8 but I can confidently fly day and night, land at airfield and terrain or even at a sea oilrig platform without sweating buckets. 😀

After this work I jumped back in the Huey and the Hind and voilá! I can fly them also well.

ED's try for free method is the second best after sliced bread.

 

And the most important thig for last: to be able to REALLY learn to fly these choppers you'd need a decent stick (preferably with extension), throttle and PEDALS. You can try without these with a simple yaw rotating stick but it will never be the same. That is good for Ka-50 (and probably will be for an Apache), but for the others it's just not enough.

  • PC: 10700K | Gigabyte Z490 | Palit 3090 GamingPro | 32GB | Win10
  • HMD: HP Reverb G2 | OpenXR @ 120% | OpenXR Toolkit: exposure, brightness, saturation | DCS 2.9: DLAA with Sharpening 0.5 (no upscaling)
  • Controllers: VKB Gunfighter MkIII base & 200 mm curved extension center mounted + TM F16 Grip / MCG Pro Grip | TM TFRP
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I started with the Huey. It´s a beautiful chopper to get the butt-feeling for helos. After you have learned to fly that thing, you will have a really good natural sense for the inputs and it´s really easy to hop in anything. On top the systems are really easy to learn so you really get to focus mainly on the flying.

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6 minutes ago, St4rgun said:

 

 

And the most important thig for last: to be able to REALLY learn to fly these choppers you'd need a decent stick (preferably with extension), throttle and PEDALS. You can try without these with a simple yaw rotating stick but it will never be the same. That is good for Ka-50 (and probably will be for an Apache), but for the others it's just not enough.

Disagree, I played for years on the budget twcs 16000, and I’ve known competent people flying on cheaper setups. You just have to be comfortable with what you have. If you learned with twist grip for pedals then keep it if you’re comfortable. You don’t need to sink a sizable amount of money in to play. It’s about what you like for your sim/game setup. You can be good on cheap stuff. I was actually better on dcs with the cheaper stuff over the expensive setup I just bought 

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20 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

Disagree, I played for years on the budget twcs 16000, and I’ve known competent people flying on cheaper setups. You just have to be comfortable with what you have. If you learned with twist grip for pedals then keep it if you’re comfortable. You don’t need to sink a sizable amount of money in to play. It’s about what you like for your sim/game setup. You can be good on cheap stuff. I was actually better on dcs with the cheaper stuff over the expensive setup I just bought 

Agree with this for the most part. Imo it parallels sim-racing well, where you have Timmy Hill (pro NASCAR driver) and Ty Majeski (very good iRacer) both using cheap setups:
https://www.reddit.com/r/iRacing/comments/ecl1pt/pretty_impressive_that_ty_majeski_10k_plus/
https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/fu0w3g/timmy_hill_the_poor_mans_hero/
 

My experience after buying a decent amount of sim and flight gear over the years has been that better gear definitely makes things more immersive and more fun, but doesn't necessarily translate to being better. Somebody with a cheap twist stick can be a better pilot than someone with all the best gear. Like most things worth doing, first it boils down to motivation, practice, patience, and skill. All that said, after a certain point of competency, better gear _can_ make help you be better, either via more precision or more feedback (stick extension is main thing that comes to mind for flight.. for racing it's having quality pedals for braking)

 

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2 minutes ago, Munkwolf said:

Agree with this for the most part. Imo it parallels sim-racing well, where you have Timmy Hill (pro NASCAR driver) and Ty Majeski (very good iRacer) both using cheap setups:
https://www.reddit.com/r/iRacing/comments/ecl1pt/pretty_impressive_that_ty_majeski_10k_plus/
https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/fu0w3g/timmy_hill_the_poor_mans_hero/
 

My experience after buying a decent amount of sim and flight gear over the years has been that better gear definitely makes things more immersive and more fun, but doesn't necessarily translate to being better. Somebody with a cheap twist stick can be a better pilot than someone with all the best gear. Like most things worth doing, first it boils down to motivation, practice, patience, and skill. All that said, after a certain point of competency, better gear _can_ make help you be better, either via more precision or more feedback (stick extension is main thing that comes to mind for flight.. for racing it's having quality pedals for braking)

 

I mean you nailed it. It drives off of what your intent is.  If you want more immersive or just gameplay. Fun is dependent on what you like to do. But to tell someone they need a joystick with an extension. And have to have pedals. Nah. 

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35 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

Disagree, I played for years on the budget twcs 16000, and I’ve known competent people flying on cheaper setups. You just have to be comfortable with what you have. If you learned with twist grip for pedals then keep it if you’re comfortable. You don’t need to sink a sizable amount of money in to play. It’s about what you like for your sim/game setup. You can be good on cheap stuff. I was actually better on dcs with the cheaper stuff over the expensive setup I just bought 

I think you misunderstood me: I said if you want to REALLY LEARN how to fly helos, then you'll need those hardware. I mean learn to be able to fly IRL.

I spent countless hours in Arma and BF:BC back in the day flying helos with keyboard and mouse, I loved that. You can learn and fly with a cheap twist stick (I used Logitech X-56 before) and it will be fun, but it can be a stress also (for your mind and wrist equally).

  • PC: 10700K | Gigabyte Z490 | Palit 3090 GamingPro | 32GB | Win10
  • HMD: HP Reverb G2 | OpenXR @ 120% | OpenXR Toolkit: exposure, brightness, saturation | DCS 2.9: DLAA with Sharpening 0.5 (no upscaling)
  • Controllers: VKB Gunfighter MkIII base & 200 mm curved extension center mounted + TM F16 Grip / MCG Pro Grip | TM TFRP
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JetCat, after you learn the Hind, most of the other coppers will be easier to learn. However, that said, if you want to learn tactics that an AH-64 would use, I recommend trying out the KA-50.

More modern systems and you learn how to use hover attack and NOE flying to sneak up on targets. Hind is not as stable of a platform when it’s slow. 

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On 11/3/2021 at 1:03 PM, Munkwolf said:

Agree with this for the most part. Imo it parallels sim-racing well, where you have Timmy Hill (pro NASCAR driver) and Ty Majeski (very good iRacer) both using cheap setups:
https://www.reddit.com/r/iRacing/comments/ecl1pt/pretty_impressive_that_ty_majeski_10k_plus/
https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/fu0w3g/timmy_hill_the_poor_mans_hero/
 

My experience after buying a decent amount of sim and flight gear over the years has been that better gear definitely makes things more immersive and more fun, but doesn't necessarily translate to being better. Somebody with a cheap twist stick can be a better pilot than someone with all the best gear. Like most things worth doing, first it boils down to motivation, practice, patience, and skill. All that said, after a certain point of competency, better gear _can_ make help you be better, either via more precision or more feedback (stick extension is main thing that comes to mind for flight.. for racing it's having quality pedals for braking)

 

But what about VR? Does having VR make flying helos easier or make you a better helo pilot?  Im on the fence about VR, hearing both pros and cons about it.

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23 minutes ago, MADLOU1 said:

But what about VR? Does having VR make flying helos easier or make you a better helo pilot?  Im on the fence about VR, hearing both pros and cons about it.

I think if somebody really wanted to fly helos and get good in them, some form of head-tracking, either VR or TrackIR stuff, does help. But it doesn't have to be VR.

Personally I'm very much into VR. I like the immersion, which makes it more fun to me, and that keeps me interested. I think a TrackIR approach might be better than VR for some people. VR is a trade-off of clarity for immersion (no current VR headset is as clear as a good monitor), and some people value clarity more. Spotting, etc, is better on monitors. Depending on the VR headset, sometimes even cockpit gauges aren't easily readable. Then there's the extra setup, the drag on performance, not being able to see your hotas and buttons pads...

To me, that's all worth it though. When I'm flying (or driving) around in VR with music going, even just sight-seeing, it's an experience.


Edited by Munkwolf
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3 hours ago, Iron Sights said:

JetCat, after you learn the Hind, most of the other coppers will be easier to learn. However, that said, if you want to learn tactics that an AH-64 would use, I recommend trying out the KA-50.

More modern systems and you learn how to use hover attack and NOE flying to sneak up on targets. Hind is not as stable of a platform when it’s slow. 

Yes it is still very very hard to fly under certain circumstances because of this vortex ring state, and tends to become highly unstable and no longer reacting to rudder and just keep turning in circles as if the tail rotor was damaged when becoming slower or trying to hoover. Some things are easy on the Hind like taxiing hoovering in ground-effect after start and vertikal (or rolling) take-offs.

But bringing the Hind to speed after a VTOL (because sometimes it just keeps spinning and spinning in circles even if I give maximum right rudder!) and slowing it down from higher speeds and landing it without getting in a vortex state or even lose the main rotor RPM is very hard. I hope that a flight dynamics patch will stop the strange spinning in circles behaviour sometimes after taking-off as if tail rotor authority was lost completely. I wonder why the Hind is doing this?

And yes VR is the best of the best, nothing can beat the superb sitting inside a cockpit feeling in VR 🙂

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1 hour ago, JetCat said:

Yes it is still very very hard to fly under certain circumstances because of this vortex ring state, and tends to become highly unstable and no longer reacting to rudder and just keep turning in circles as if the tail rotor was damaged when becoming slower or trying to hoover. Some things are easy on the Hind like taxiing hoovering in ground-effect after start and vertikal (or rolling) take-offs.

But bringing the Hind to speed after a VTOL (because sometimes it just keeps spinning and spinning in circles even if I give maximum right rudder!) and slowing it down from higher speeds and landing it without getting in a vortex state or even lose the main rotor RPM is very hard. I hope that a flight dynamics patch will stop the strange spinning in circles behaviour sometimes after taking-off as if tail rotor authority was lost completely. I wonder why the Hind is doing this?

And yes VR is the best of the best, nothing can beat the superb sitting inside a cockpit feeling in VR 🙂

Vortex ring requires low (air) speed and high rate of descent (and power applied). Make your approaches shallow, like a fixed wing, and you'll be much less likely to end up in that situation.

Also, make your approaches into wind. It makes a big difference.

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