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Performance (FPS) loss from 2.7.6 to 2.7.7


Limaro
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3 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

I am very surprised that this has been unable to be reproduced across any ED machine save for flappie's.  

Yup, straight impossible if you ask me which gives me the creepy feeling the loss in performance will stay.
I even wonder who at ED's still runs anything older then 2.7.7 since that's the latest "stable" version already with the performance loss in it (compared to 2.7.6).
I'll keep my stable at 2.7.6, won't upgrade to anything higher just to keep a reference.


Edited by Lange_666

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41 minutes ago, Lange_666 said:

I even wonder who at ED's still runs anything older then 2.7.7 since that's the latest stable version already with the performance loss in it.
I'll keep my stable at 2.7.6, won't upgrade to anything higher just to keep a reference.

 If we keep 2.7.6, can we have all the current aircraft fixes by downloading the modules again? Or do we have to have a current DCS World to match?

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I would like to know this as well

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Ya performance is still bad and may have gotten worse.  Ive made a mission at the Iraq syria border and was getting decent performance before this update.  Now Memory maxes out after about 10 minutes in the mission.  Have to Alt tab out of dcs for it to recover.  Come on...


Edited by Enduro14

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1 hour ago, deep said:

 If we keep 2.7.6, can we have all the current aircraft fixes by downloading the modules again? Or do we have to have a current DCS World to match?

A DCS version contains a specific version of each module. You cannot get module updates without updating the core.

Don't accept indie game testing requests from friends in Discord. Ever.

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19 minutes ago, Flappie said:

A DCS version contains a specific version of each module. You cannot get module updates without updating the core.

So it sounds like the boats have been burned. I sincerely hope ED does not give up on the performance problem.

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35 minutes ago, deep said:

So it sounds like the boats have been burned. I sincerely hope ED does not give up on the performance problem.

And at the VERY least tell us so if they in fact have given up OR if not, tell us what they think will solve it down the road...

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3 minutes ago, Raven434th said:

And at the VERY least tell us so if they in fact have given up OR if not, tell us what they think will solve it down the road...

Agree I can’t even get 2.7.6 performance on a rift s anymore,  that was always reliable and had wonderful settings,  now with much lower settings set for quest 2 rift s still has issues.  32gb ram maxed, stutters and gpu after around 10 minutes pegs at 100 percent and fps drops to around 17 and crazy screen tearing and stutters.  I’m not imagining this, done repairs, replaced save games folder, tried stable and beta, no dice.  Now after todays update the mission I made in empty south east portion of Syria into Iraq is having the issues above where before todays patch it did not.

  Think I’ll take a break and try again later down the road.  Unless some miracle solution is found.

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Its no fix and no solution but, for now at least dumping the 2x MSAA and living with the NCP FXAA has an acceptable image quality hit for me at my already low tech 1080P and actually improves some elements like power lines a little. Recovers 8-9 fps (no sh1t sherlock) which almost (but not quite) brings OB and the Hind into the playable realm (weighing in on my "bottom line" test -which I find  needs to be 86 fps or above at the spawn of the Mi24 weapons range mission in the Caucauses -2 fps shy -up from 76 fps to 84/5). Poss ok for Helos but I suspect spotting at a distance will suffer with the FXAA "vaseline" effect if your are a fighter type. Certainly makes for a happier 2.5.6 which starts the same mission at 102 fps without MSAA (so a further widening of the gap up to 18 fps)

New Nvidia driver has image scaling which, for me  at 1080P is quite pointless but may be worth a looksee for people using 1440P or 4K. Again a hack around the issue which I doubt will bring much joy to most. My nvidia install did not go smooth (first time in a long time). Probably just one of those things and easly nuked with DDU but it appears to require a reboot after every NCP change and crashed to desktop during install. No discerable improvement fps wise over the previous one so probably worth sticking if image scaling and Battlefield 2042 isnt your bag. ... 

But yeah......18 fps......pooof!...........gone

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Me too...

I've been watching this particular topic, hoping that I wouldn't be one of the affected ones as I've never had problems with updates before...

Against my better judgement I updated to 2.7.7... and took an obvious, large hit in performance.  Turned what was a silky smooth Rift S experience to a juddering, unplayable mess.  I then updated from 2.7.7 to 2.7.8 hoping for some improvement but saw so perceptible change - still a juddering, unplayable mess.  Obvious stutters just panning around the cockpit in the Hornet which I've never experienced before.  

I was already on lowish settings (as befitting my lowish spec machine 🙂) and it was perfectly playable for me, but now DCS is unplayable for me in VR (I'm not using hyperbole).

Nothing else has changed.  I run no mods, PD of 1 and no ss.  It is the update.  No question about it.  This update has smashed performance!

Really hoping something can be done about it...

EDIT: Just tried removing MSAA, no change in the stutters at all... 


Edited by pngflyer
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That's a bit of bullshit. Loosing performance and then bring it back with multithread/Vulcan to end on the same level again as were we left off (if multithread/Vulcan will even deliver that "upgrade" which i personally don't believe). And would it bring that extra, just think of the gain if there was no loss to start with...

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1 hour ago, Lange_666 said:

That's a bit of bullshit. Loosing performance and then bring it back with multithread/Vulcan to end on the same level again as were we left off (if multithread/Vulcan will even deliver that "upgrade" which i personally don't believe). And would it bring that extra, just think of the gain if there was no loss to start with...

For our gen 4 CPUs definitely not. I've been with this game since 2004 and it has always been asking for better and better hardware. 

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I have not played since before the 2.7.7 update and had very smooth VR performance with medium to high settings with no terrain shadows and low water with 16x AF no MSAA. Now with same setttings I have lost around 10fps and it is very stuttery and random quick freezes. Like always I delete shaders folder. 

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14 hours ago, impalor said:

OB 2.7.7 to 2.7.8 shaved 1-2 FPS from my meagre 45 average. But as Bignewy said, we all should just wait for multithread/Vulcan implementation.

 

 

11 hours ago, Lange_666 said:

That's a bit of bullshit. Loosing performance and then bring it back with multithread/Vulcan to end on the same level again as were we left off (if multithread/Vulcan will even deliver that "upgrade" which i personally don't believe). And would it bring that extra, just think of the gain if there was no loss to start with...

 

9 hours ago, impalor said:

 

For our gen 4 CPUs definitely not. I've been with this game since 2004 and it has always been asking for better and better hardware. 

Its really nothing to do with the gen of the CPU. Im on a Ryzen 7. Same result as when I was on a 6600K. Games that evolve will always ask for more but 2.7.7 didnt ask, It kicked in the doors and put a gun to our heads with no warning. Im really trying to stay even keeled and positivie about it but 18 fps isnt a dip and scant ackowlegment other than what feels tanatamount to "its reported now shut up" doesnt give me a warm fuzzy feeling. And its one of a number of factors affecting the game and specifically low level play that appear to have crept in since 2.7.  Sticking to an older release also isnt a solution  when important updates to modules dictate you update. 

Vulkan/Multithreading is for the future but we dont know how far ahead that future or even what benefits it will bring. 

In terms of Vulkan returing lost performance I agree with Lange although Id be happy to see a trade between improvement and demand with the tech could compensate for to a point. My concern is that this is only good when one is certain what those demands are and that those demands are unavoidable and not down to bad or misunderstood code. Neither of those conditions appears to be present at this time. The risk then comes that the tech appears, everone cheers but then, over time, the old problems continue to knaw at the wiring and perfornace once again begins to drop with each patch. 

I think if a boat has a hole in it, you fix the hole before it sinks.  

Finally, and a little OT, but I spoke to some of my old simming friends recently and this came up. What struck me in that conversation was just how little some of them understood stuff like Vsync, how many of them lived with the 30 fps half refresh hack it enforces and how many of them had such mixed settings it would make noticing anything different almost impossible. I know we all think the average DCS player is a tech savvy genius but I suspect most are just normal people who are simply happy stuff works. Some even see the performance demands as a indication of how advanced the game is. I also have to wonder just what percentage of the player base actually use or activiely contribute to this forum. It does tend to be the same couple of dozen names appearing time and again and its human nature to let the other guy do the work. I cannot help but think that the issue is more widespread but simply isnt being noticed or reported. But I would say that wouldnt I? 

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I am with all of you and I'm not defending the devs. It's just I did a lot of programming myself and understand the situation from their point of view. I hope they are indeed working on the new core and to assure compatibility with all the modules, which keep evolving, is a daunting project. They just don't have resources to debug what more or less works. Debugging takes 10 times more effort vs coding.

 

From my side, I did not notice any huge FPS drop from 2.7.6 to 2.7.7, but my setup is heavily optimized to squeeze every last bit of performance. My CPU, GPU, RAM and VRAM all run at 100% capacity on GS. The only problem I have is G2 not getting enough CPU cycles for smooth head tracking, so I have finally decided to upgrade.

 

Good tips on how to save VRAM and RAM I found in this thread: 

 

So yes, this "game" is not plug-and-play. One must be VERY tech savvy to stay on top of it.


Edited by impalor

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32 minutes ago, impalor said:

Good tips on how to save VRAM and RAM I found in this thread: 

 

I also have this set up. I cannot discern any huge difference but it feels "snappier" when changing scenes in SP (cockpit switching, F keying about). I have not ventured into MP however where its benefits are said to be more apparent.. 

It isnt a solution to the fps however. (Not that impalor is suggesting that it is) 

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On 11/18/2021 at 8:22 PM, Lange_666 said:

Yup, straight impossible if you ask me which gives me the creepy feeling the loss in performance will stay.
I even wonder who at ED's still runs anything older then 2.7.7 since that's the latest "stable" version already with the performance loss in it (compared to 2.7.6).
I'll keep my stable at 2.7.6, won't upgrade to anything higher just to keep a reference.

 

If you read the penultimate post on a similar thread BN told us to be patient while we wait until the multicore performance updates. 
So yea the loss in performance is going to stay until they release multicore sometime in the future. 
I asked if they are going to release any patches in the meantime which reduce performance and if they will release any optimisation in the near future and there was no answer. 
They know about the performance loss it’s been “reported” maybe they are just choosing to ignore it hoping that any multicore performance increase will absorb it. 
I am very very worried that when they do release multicore or vulkan that all these performance bugs will stay and wipe out any gains we get. 
I wonder could someone from ED confirm that they will sort out the performance bugs before they release multicore as otherwise we are just going to be in the same position. 

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Continue to monitor but haven’t flown or purchased anything for almost a year now. Just can’t keep up with all the configuring every time they release a patch or update. Tired of the slideshow. 
That said, here’s the thing that chaws me off a tad. Every update we keep seeing a portion of folks that report fps drops. 1.5% here, 3% there but it adds up. For the flat screen guys, they can absorb this and still enjoy the experience. AND that’s GREAT!
 For the VR guys, it’s just not worth it anymore. Yes I choose vr and yes I prefer MP so I get it, that’s on me and that’s not my gripe. 
My gripe is they continue to pile load after load of fps sucking goodness on a program that worked awesome when I bought it, but has now been rendered pretty much useless for my needs(again I said my needs so save the fanboy slams) and the icing on the cake is Bignewy continues to come on here and say “sorry guys, plays great on my end, just not seeing it” with a machine common to many of us and  using the current generation of VR headset.

So he either fibs to tow the party line, or knows something he’s not telling….. 

end of rant  have a great weekend  

 

 

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

 For the flat screen guys, they can absorb this and still enjoy the experience. AND that’s GREAT!

 

No we cant. AND its not GREAT!  Making out its just a VR thing is plain wrong and also dimishes the argument for taking action by reenforcing a MYTH that it affects only a realtive small proportion of higher demand players. I see this type of comment in virtually every performance thread including the many actually started by a flat screener. No doubt a VR capable rig will play the game in 2D incredibly. But not everyone can choose to have such a rig. Not everyone can afford the £1000 GPU minimum upgrade  to bring the horsepower now required to replace even 10 fps.  As a result they find themselves up exactly the same creek as Gavin in the Goggles.   

Those goggles may expand the virtual world but they appear to induce a certain level of tunnel vision also...

1 hour ago, scampaboy said:

If you read the penultimate post on a similar thread BN told us to be patient while we wait until the multicore performance updates. 
So yea the loss in performance is going to stay until they release multicore sometime in the future. 
 

A comment I must sadly admit that I took with a gain of salt. 

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This doesn’t bode well for Apache, and now feel dumb for pre ordering it as flying the Hind is out the window due to this fps drop in vr.  Like I said above I even Down graded back to rift s and it can’t run amazing like it use too.

 

if Apache don’t release with multi core and Vulcan then it’s no point in even trying it.


Edited by Enduro14

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3 hours ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

and the icing on the cake is Bignewy continues to come on here and say “sorry guys, plays great on my end, just not seeing it”

So he either fibs to tow the party line, or knows something he’s not telling…..

Spot on, just a little bit more now and the topic gets locked which in my opinion just proves our point.

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Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!

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2 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

No we cant. AND its not GREAT!  Making out its just a VR thing is plain wrong and also dimishes the argument for taking action by reenforcing a MYTH that it affects only a realtive small proportion of higher demand players. I see this type of comment in virtually every performance thread including the many actually started by a flat screener. No doubt a VR capable rig will play the game in 2D incredibly. But not everyone can choose to have such a rig. Not everyone can afford the £1000 GPU minimum upgrade  to bring the horsepower now required to replace even 10 fps.  As a result they find themselves up exactly the same creek as Gavin in the Goggles.   

Those goggles may expand the virtual world but they appear to induce a certain level of tunnel vision also...

A comment I must sadly admit that I took with a gain of salt. 

Naturally if I would have posted without that delineation I would have been bombarded by the “my flat screen works awesome” crowd so I choose to speak on my behalf. Not for a second diminutive to your cause so please don’t shift focus off of the POINT  of the argument onto the punctuation….

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2 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

No we cant. AND its not GREAT!  Making out its just a VR thing is plain wrong and also dimishes the argument for taking action by reenforcing a MYTH that it affects only a realtive small proportion of higher demand players. I see this type of comment in virtually every performance thread including the many actually started by a flat screener. No doubt a VR capable rig will play the game in 2D incredibly. But not everyone can choose to have such a rig. Not everyone can afford the £1000 GPU minimum upgrade  to bring the horsepower now required to replace even 10 fps.  As a result they find themselves up exactly the same creek as Gavin in the Goggles.   

Those goggles may expand the virtual world but they appear to induce a certain level of tunnel vision also...

A comment I must sadly admit that I took with a gain of salt. 

having spent 1000GBP on a GPU I can tell you ... it's still not enough ... it's close (with a lot of fiddling) but its not enough

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