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F-15E WIP Update Discussion


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43 minutes ago, Papanowel said:

I'm eager to see the footage where they'll show the work done on the A/G radar 😃

I think it isnt modelled yet, too early stage. As it was on video, just few screens are working, the rest is placeholder but I hope we will see Big "E" this year!

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On 5/6/2022 at 8:35 PM, Nahen said:

The F-15E Strike Eagle ... Has completely duplicate weapon handling systems for the front and rear seats. The WSO is to handle the A-G weapons due to the large variety of these weapons carried by the machine. The pilot has his own tasks and WSO exempts him from the obligation to know the specifications of each bomb, rocket, etc., and thus how to use them best. But each type of weapon can be launched / released by the pilot himself without the help of WSO. Sam can handle TGP.
Since the F-16C, F / A-18C can easily perform their A-G tasks only with the "front seat" - what's the point of pushing some AI to the F-15E? Either you handle it yourself or you will fly in two.
And I'd rather have them fine-tune things this way instead of wasting time and work on some retarded AI in the back seat.

And one more thing - WSO can also independently drive the machine without a pilot;) But probably everyone knows that ... and this what I wrote above ... 😉

There are about a dozen switches/inputs exclusively accessible to the WSO which means that for sake of desirable level of realism, pilot in game would need to switch back to WSO seat (as being done in Janes F-15, Microprose SE3) to take care of that.

A slight chance to introduce some form of AI (as Ron mentioned in recent YT video) might hint that it could address this particular use case - use some form of scripted command which perform some functions without leaving the pilot seat. 

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No Jester, not at least in form known as current Jester/George 'engines'.

WSO seat is not exclusive, one can control both positions.

A wise decision IMHO.

@PD919

(Standard) flight model being shown in GS video does not support imminent release, then a lot to be done in AA radar alone while AG radar is in perhaps early stages of dev. In spite of that, they obviously got the right team behind the project and this is coming up really nice.

Comparison wise, ED has thrown Apache teaser in September 2021 aiming for mid-January release which at the reached mid March.  

 

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On 5/20/2022 at 8:32 PM, Njinsa said:

There are about a dozen switches/inputs exclusively accessible to the WSO which means that for sake of desirable level of realism, pilot in game would need to switch back to WSO seat (as being done in Janes F-15, Microprose SE3) to take care of that.

A slight chance to introduce some form of AI (as Ron mentioned in recent YT video) might hint that it could address this particular use case - use some form of scripted command which perform some functions without leaving the pilot seat. 

From the pilot's seat, you will be able to handle the entire part of the avionics responsible for servicing the A-G armament. The difference between what is in the WSO site and what is not available at the pilot's site are the elements responsible for, dedicated to some types of bombs / missiles, programming the parameters of their drop, fuses, "detonators" profiles, etc. These are the "details" that the pilot does not must know and operate - this is what WSO and its training are for. The pilot can, for example, fire the AGM-65, but it does not have to affect the selection of the missile's flight profile. The pilot is to guide the machine, fight in the air and use the A-G weapon in an emergency. For example, the pilot is not able to handle "manually" TV guided missiles. But it is able to fire them. It is not able to use all TGP modes. But as such, the avionics of the machine is duplicated in both places.

Work on artificial intelligence "for the back seat" is an unnecessary waste of time and energy. In the case of the F-15E, it is completely unnecessary.
 


Edited by Nahen
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Actually, you're not right, avionics (or better said controls/access) are not 100%duplicated, not in real life and hopefully not within the DCS F-15E module.

If one, like yourself, would like to stay on front seat only, you would need to map some key or joystick/throttle bindings in order to access those functions.

That's how other complex modules in DCS actually do.

 

To quote an extremely reliable source from SE community, some systems are available only from back seat.

"There are 5 main systems that are powered on and set up in the RCP:  RWR, ICS, CMD, EWWS and TGP."

Otherwise, I do agree that AI in any form is not bringing back invested man days of development team, but it is their call.  


Edited by Njinsa
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On 5/20/2022 at 11:43 PM, Njinsa said:

Actually, you're not right, avionics (or better said controls/access) are not 100%duplicated, not in real life and hopefully not within the DCS F-15E module.

If one, like yourself, would like to stay on front seat only, you would need to map some key or joystick/throttle bindings in order to access those functions.

That's how other complex modules in DCS actually do.

 

Only these other modules are in no way similar to the F-15E. Maybe give me an example of the similarities between the F-15E and the F-14, AH-64, Mi-24, CC-101 ??

Understand in a real F-15, the pilot himself can attack the target on the ground. It doesn't need to change anywhere or bind anything. It can't use all kinds of weapons, but that's what this plane works for. Do you want to convince me that if you need to bind RIO functions with the F-14, it should be the same in the F-15 ?? Funny. Once again, everything that is the basis for operating the A-G armament, A-G armament "handling" systems is available from the pilot's seat.

If you want to use advanced weapons - especially guided post-drop - you need WSO. If you use weapons in "fire and forget" modes, or drop conventional bombs, you don't need anything from the WSO seat. Maverick thermally or laser guided,  does not need WSO, if you want to guide it "manually" in TV mode you need WSO. This is how it works, in a nutshell.

And it better be like that, instead of wasting time and risking problems with some limited AI.

 

And since this is the case i real, I don't understand why DCS should change it?


Edited by Nahen
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This is what you get when you rely on auto translate because you don't understand English or just trolling.

When I used term 'bind' it's only relevant in DCS context, not in real world.

If you insist of being ignored, you're doing a fine job.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Njinsa
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23 hours ago, Njinsa said:

If one, like yourself, would like to stay on front seat only, you would need to map some key or joystick/throttle bindings in order to access those functions.

That's how other complex modules in DCS actually do.

 

???

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The thing that puts a damper on the potential closeness of the release date is that they haven't shown us any A2G functionality yet (outside of dropping dumb bombs) and they continue to highlight that the latest videos are just 3D model showcases and not system demonstrations. Especially since some of the indications for some of the functions are not operating like they're supposed to.

On another note, that video Hi8 player gives me hope that I can play some weird ass videos in the F-15E. That's some great meme potential right there. The video Hi8 player and recorder is intended for recording the HUD, MFDs, etc. for debriefs.

Spoiler

image.png

 


Edited by DSplayer

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I sure do hope there's an AI WSO. Aside from starting the aircraft up and doing things like guiding MITL weapons, a second pair of eyes greatly enhances SA in AA combat. I hope that RAZBAM can either adopt George to work with fixed wing, or strike a deal with HB to include something like Jester. The whole point of flying a two-seater is to be able to work with a WSO on flying the mission.

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15 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I sure do hope there's an AI WSO. Aside from starting the aircraft up and doing things like guiding MITL weapons, a second pair of eyes greatly enhances SA in AA combat. I hope that RAZBAM can either adopt George to work with fixed wing, or strike a deal with HB to include something like Jester. The whole point of flying a two-seater is to be able to work with a WSO on flying the mission.

That Air Combat Experience podcast featuring RAZBAM discussed the possibility of an AI WSO. IIRC, they do plan on an AI WSO but it will be more of a tool rather than an AI similar to Jester.

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I am both sorry and glad that Jester, at the current state, is the Gold Standard TM of DCS co-pilot I really need to get my hands on the SE HOTAS to see if I really need the AI.

C'mon, c'mon, c'mon

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3 hours ago, DSplayer said:

IIRC, they do plan on an AI WSO but it will be more of a tool rather than an AI similar to Jester.

So, more like George. In fact, maybe they can use the same framework, since George is (or will be) capable of spotting and designating both air and ground targets, as well as setting up specific switches. The biggest job for George will be lasing things and pickling air to ground weapons, just like in the Apache. 

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2 hours ago, Nahen said:

Isn't it easier to find a flying buddy? And realism is greater, and it is easier to get along ...

Different preferences of gameplay need to be taken into account.  Just because it would be higher realism to fly with a buddy doesn't mean that's how this game must be played.  For instance, what about the players who only want to fly in singleplayer?  Or players who choose to fly solo in multiplayer because they can't be bothered to find wingmen/copilots but still want to feel like they're not in a lifeless mission?

Not everyone has the desire nor capacity to make friends online.  An AI WSO, even as just a tool, would be valuable to have.


Edited by Tuuvas
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I think the AI/tool shouldn't be a priority, it may come later when the plane is already in a "good" open beta state.

I have the F14 and I've flown it a lot and its really good, and although Jester is one of the best AI I've seen it's REALLY (REALLY) bad compared to a human RIO. I never fly it alone anymore. I think the development of an AI is a waste of time. Maybe using a framework like George may be a good choice for the future for the people who like to fly alone.

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19 hours ago, Ignition said:

I think the AI/tool shouldn't be a priority, it may come later when the plane is already in a "good" open beta state.

I have the F14 and I've flown it a lot and its really good, and although Jester is one of the best AI I've seen it's REALLY (REALLY) bad compared to a human RIO. I never fly it alone anymore. I think the development of an AI is a waste of time. Maybe using a framework like George may be a good choice for the future for the people who like to fly alone.

As @Tuuvassaid, not everyone is capable of committing to MP. In fact, probably many DCS users have a demanding social life (read: "kids" 😉) and are glad to find just a bit of spare time in the evening if they're lucky.

For those people (me included 🙂), finding time for a proper MP session with a human crew member is very difficult. Not only due to time limitation, but also because at any given moment social life (read: "child" 😉) might need some attention and you won't be able to pause..

I certainly do hope RAZBAM takes me and others like me, who are mostly dependent on SP, into account and implement some sort of crew member AI. But I'm confident they will 🙂

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45 minutes ago, sirrah said:

I certainly do hope RAZBAM takes me and others like me, who are mostly dependent on SP, into account and implement some sort of crew member AI. But I'm confident they will 🙂

I am sure they will have access to stats of DCS activity online and offline. My belief is that the forums naturally skew the perceived multiplayer vs single player ratios but my understanding is that single player activity dwarfs multiplayer.


Edited by Baldrick33
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