F-15E WIP Update Discussion

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

Have you seen code before?  It’s a pretty laborious task to take on. 

 

I am as well versed in code as I am in quantum mechanics. No PhD just yet. 

 

But isn't all the code based on pre-existing formats of code? (Does that make sense?) I can't imagine when someone codes an F-15 for DCS it's in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics, whereas the F-16 was in backwards Sanskrit, if you see what I mean. So it's not like re-inventing the wheel each time is it? I would imagine the plane is a bazillion triangles put together with a photoshop-ish program and the code is 1s and 0s in a particular order on a particular line. 

 

Now I'm not saying it's easy and I'm not complaining. Just saying I don't really understand the depth of the challenge I guess.

[Deano87]

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

Just saying I don't really understand the depth of the challenge I guess.

While you're right that they're not re-inventing the wheel each time when it comes to the software used and the coding language. All of the systems on each aircraft will be more or less unique to that aircraft.

Lets just look at an electrical system. The system has a battery, how big is that battery? What voltage is it? What does the batteries load vs voltage curve look like? How many amps does each component that the battery powers draw and what voltage do they require to operate? When a specific switch in the cockpit is flipped, what systems get turned on, in what order? How does powering on the engine generators change the situation? You can see how this can turn into complex system which while some of it can be drawn from an existing code-base most of it will be unique to that aircraft.

You've then got to do a similar process for the multiple redundant hydraulic systems, fuel systems, equipment cooling systems, individual engine control systems, flight control systems and associated stability augmentation systems etc etc. And that's before you've got to any of the tactical systems. Be aware that you then need to think about failure and damage modes of all of the above systems. This is not an inconsiderable amount of work, and we haven't even touched on flight physics modelling which is a artform in itself.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Allow me to add a drop into the ocean. I am a little familiar with coding, but by my educated guess it is nothing when compared to simulating a real, very complex piece of engineering. Every part of the plane is connected so changes in one part affects the other. To make it even more complicated, the parts are also interacting with the outside world, wind, temperature, air pressure, not to mention, that ordinance heading towards the plane.

And then, the developers has to translate all, or most, of the above into coding.

Look at IndiaFoxtEcho, the small team works very hard for, how long?, a relatively simple plane MB-339, in which they demonstrate the attention to details, including and not limited to, actual cockpit frost. I have all the respect of what they are doing so I will not buy their MSFS counterparts. 

At the end, I like my F-15C, so I hope the hype worth it all.

Edited January 9, 2022 by VFGiPJP

[Beirut]

41 minutes ago, VFGiPJP said:

Allow me to add a drop into the ocean. I am a little familiar with coding, but by my educated guess it is nothing when compared to simulating a real, very complex piece of engineering. Every part of the plane is connected so changes in one part affects the other. To make it even more complicated, the parts are also interacting with the outside world, wind, temperature, air pressure, not to mention, that ordinance heading towards the plane.

And then, the developers has to translate all, or most, of the above into coding.

 

Now I may just be showcasing my ignorance, but doesn't the way DCS work, or the fact that DCS does work at all, mean that all those variables are just different answers to the same set of questions for each plane? "Wind resistance to X bomb load - set value 1 to 100" That kind of thing. Could you not "simply" change the values on any set of parameters in any plane's existing code and by doing so replicate the FM of any other plane? 

 

I think what I have in mind is that there is a kind of master code template that exists - or doesn't -  and that once you have the template, it's just a long azz series of multiple choice questions that have to be answered to get the desired result. And I figured with today's super computers, the process could be greatly speeded up. Not quite to the point of asking Siri to "Make me an F-104 FM", but neither would it be as it was ten or twenty-years ago.

 

But as stated, what the hell do I know.  

 

41 minutes ago, VFGiPJP said:

Look at IndiaFoxtEcho, the small team works very hard for, how long?, a relatively simple plane MB-339, in which they demonstrate the attention to details, including and not limited to, actual cockpit frost. I have all the respect of what they are doing so I will not buy their MSFS counterparts. 

At the end, I like my F-15C, so I hope the hype worth it all.

 

 

I think I'll end up buying the MB-339 just because I feel bad for kind of insulting it the other day. 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

It is okay. I was oversimplifying things, as a matter of fact. Just the flight model is not table lookup. I suppose there are equations involved. I am the last person one would ask, as many out there like the A-4E-C team can fill us in the complexity of this item alone. 

[yngvef]

My impression is that 3d model and texturing is the smallest part compared to the work-hours required to create the flight model and systems simulation (MFDs, radar, targeting systems). Particularly on something as complex as the F-15E. I remember ED posted a list of the work-hours required to create the F-18, and it was something like 40 work-years total or something crazy like that. And the F-15E is definitely not any less complex than the F-18.

As we've not seen a functional, interactive cockpit yet, I remain highly cynical about the possibility of a release in 2022. 

Still images of external and internal model and a few basic weapons doesn't really show anything. Like that image of the F-15E dropping general purpose bombs that was shared in the other thread on the 29th of december (i think it was). Sure, it's nice to see that it can drop bombs at all, but considering the extreme level of complexity of precision weapons (and the large selection that the Strike Eagle can carry), it tells very little about the amount of progress being made. 

I mean, slick Mk-80-series of bombs are probably the simplest AG munition there is, as they have only a basic free fall ballistic and there are only a few sizes of the same bomb type to choose from. It makes sense that this is the first AG munition you implement as it is probably the easiest, but if that means they still haven't started with all the PGMs that this plane can carry, then we are a very very long way out still.

 

[Deano87]

1 hour ago, yngvef said:

My impression is that 3d model and texturing is the smallest part compared to the work-hours required to create the flight model and systems simulation (MFDs, radar, targeting systems). Particularly on something as complex as the F-15E. I remember ED posted a list of the work-hours required to create the F-18, and it was something like 40 work-years total or something crazy like that. And the F-15E is definitely not any less complex than the F-18.

As we've not seen a functional, interactive cockpit yet, I remain highly cynical about the possibility of a release in 2022. 

Still images of external and internal model and a few basic weapons doesn't really show anything. Like that image of the F-15E dropping general purpose bombs that was shared in the other thread on the 29th of december (i think it was). Sure, it's nice to see that it can drop bombs at all, but considering the extreme level of complexity of precision weapons (and the large selection that the Strike Eagle can carry), it tells very little about the amount of progress being made. 

I mean, slick Mk-80-series of bombs are probably the simplest AG munition there is, as they have only a basic free fall ballistic and there are only a few sizes of the same bomb type to choose from. It makes sense that this is the first AG munition you implement as it is probably the easiest, but if that means they still haven't started with all the PGMs that this plane can carry, then we are a very very long way out still.

 

We’ve seen functioning radar and HSD, A-A missile symbology on the HUD and we’ve been told by prowler that it definitely coming in 2022. But I suppose we do need somebody here to offset my boundless optimism.

[Papanowel]

20 hours ago, yngvef said:

My impression is that 3d model and texturing is the smallest part compared to the work-hours required to create the flight model and systems simulation (MFDs, radar, targeting systems). Particularly on something as complex as the F-15E. I remember ED posted a list of the work-hours required to create the F-18, and it was something like 40 work-years total or something crazy like that. And the F-15E is definitely not any less complex than the F-18.

As we've not seen a functional, interactive cockpit yet, I remain highly cynical about the possibility of a release in 2022.

 

They've gathered experience with their previous module, they don't have to start from scratch anymore. As far as they have all the needed docs for this bird I'm not that concerned about the time it will need to get a flyable A/G platform like the F15E.

 

[DSplayer]

Loaded with a simple and ordinary loadout.

Edited January 22, 2022 by DSplayer

[DSplayer]

We're getting some system functionality imagery of the APG-70 at least in A2A. Would like maybe some more A2G orientated stuff considering the primary role of the aircraft (Maybe some TGP footage/screenshots or maybe A2G radar modes).

[Papanowel]

15 hours ago, DSplayer said:

We're getting some system functionality imagery of the APG-70 at least in A2A. Would like maybe some more A2G orientated stuff considering the primary role of the aircraft (Maybe some TGP footage/screenshots or maybe A2G radar modes).

They are focusing on the A/A radar first and then they will move into the A/G one. The pace of informations we are receiving is quite nice. I'm very optimistic to see it released in EA this year.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Papanowel

[Mr. Wilson]

Is it known at the moment how this f15e will differ from f15с from ED in its speed characteristics?

[Njinsa]

Not known at the moment, we'll have to wait and see when it's out.

Developers have all docs they need in order to create a model matching performance charts. 

I'd expect some small loss at top speed and acceleration compared to C as more powerful engines cannot compensate extra drag imposed by CFTs. 

 

[Deano87]

2 hours ago, Mr. Wilson said:

Is it known at the moment how this f15e will differ from f15с from ED in its speed characteristics?

It will be a fair chunk slower than a C model. The CFTs are quite draggy with all the pylons and whatnot and it does effect the performance when supersonic. To quote from a relevant document.

Quote

T.O. 1F-15E-1, D 15 April 1993.

Blocks 41 to 53.

Appendix B9-11. Level Flight Envelope, Gross weight 54,000 pounds, Maximum Thrust.

Airplane Configuration:
-5CFT, (4)AIM-7, (4)AIM-9.

Remarks:
Engines: (2)F100-PW-229, U.S. Standard Day, 1966. 

CFT design limit curve is Mach 1.2 at around 8,000ft, Mach 1.4 at 18,000, Mach 1.6 at 25,000, Mach 2 at 35,000.

However on a standard day at max power, performance starts to drop away from the CFT design limit at around 22,000.

At 30,000, the CFT DL is just shy of Mach 1.8, but the max speed is just a bit below that at Mach 1.7.

Increase to 35,000, and there is a bit of a band between Mach 1.9 and Mach 1.85 that the jet can actually attain, and this is where it peaks on a standard day. Increase the altitude and it drops off. It can just barely touch Mach 2 (more like Mach 1.99) if the day is standard -10°C. Anything hotter decreases performance. At standard +10°C, the max peaks out below Mach 1.8 at around 1.7-1.75.

Remember the above is 4 sparrow and 4 sidewinder, with no tanks. So yeah it will be a bit slower.

[Mr. Wilson]

I would be interested to see the speed diagrams according to which the aircraft is being developed...

[Njinsa]

Are you US citizen ?

If you are, you can legally purchase F-15E's -1 manual and read performance data.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Njinsa

[Mr. Wilson]

14 часов назад, Njinsa сказал:

Are you US citizen ?

If you are, you can legally purchase F-15E's -1 manual and read performance data.

 

Ahahha no but I was hoping that maybe some data was published by razbam

[Deano87]

@Mr. Wilson Why specifically are you interested in the speed aspect? Perhaps if you ask specific questions you can more specific answers.

Generally speaking though it will perform worse than the C model.

[Mr. Wilson]

22 часа назад, Deano87 сказал:

@Mr. Wilson Why specifically are you interested in the speed aspect? Perhaps if you ask specific questions you can more specific answers.

Generally speaking though it will perform worse than the C model.

I just hoped that I would see a speed graph to understand its potential in air combat... F15C will certainly be better, but it is not clear how much "E" will be worse.

[Deano87]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Wilson said:

I just hoped that I would see a speed graph to understand its potential in air combat... F15C will certainly be better, but it is not clear how much "E" will be worse.

I’m going to deploy the classic fighter pilot answer : It Depends.  

[Njinsa]

All mesh/skinning/texture work has been completed, at least that was relayed on Discord some months ago. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Njinsa

[Deano87]

1 hour ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Are things like landing gear even modeled yet as I haven't seen them in any screenshots of the model yet?

Not been looking that hard then I take it?

From the update thread, a few months back.

[Beirut]

Okay, I'm going to rag.

 

Is there any news at all about when this thing might see the light of day? I'm all hot and heavy to pass along my money, but my flight time and money are limited. If this thing isn't going to give birth for nine-months, can we be told so we can (re)consider buying the Apache, for example? If RB says the F-15E looks to be one month or three months out, fine. But if it's a question of six-months or god forbid 2023, it would be nice to know.

 

We the buyers have limited DCS time and limited DCS money. It would be nice to know how we may look to manage these things.

 

And thank you, I'll be quiet now. 

[MikkelCanNotFly]

From what we've seen it might be a few months out, and even if they're satisfied with it ED will still have to test if for a month or two. But judging by what we've seen so far and it's role in 2022AB it's likely to come this year, but exactly when is not known.

[Blinde]

Does the F-15E have FBW? I tried to look it up but I'm not sure.