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DCS F16 performance


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20 minutes ago, Mover said:

I did not.

A few people on reddit were talking about it and it looks like it was misinterpreted somehow. 8:52 timestamp. Had to listen to it a few times: In DCS it's slowing down when it shouldn't?


Edited by Nealius
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6 minutes ago, Nealius said:

A few people on reddit were talking about it and it looks like it was misinterpreted somehow. 8:52 timestamp. Had to listen to it a few times: In DCS it's slowing down when it shouldn't?

 

In real life, it would be at 9Gs without bleeding down very quickly at that speed.  

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  • ED Team

Hi all

When we compare our Viper to the data it is correct. 

We still have some work to do on G-onset, but that is all. 

If you feel something is off you will need to provide tracks of your tests so we can compare it to the real world data. 

Thank you

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When 2 pilots say the flight model is seriously off i would like to know about the credentials of those who maintain that's not so.

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7 minutes ago, CobaltUK said:

When 2 pilots say the flight model is seriously off i would like to know about the credentials of those who maintain that's not so.

when pilots say the flight model is off we would like to check it with the track replays against the real world data that we have used to create our viper. 

We have to use the data, feelings are not enough, and I am sure the sim feels very different from real life, a physical aircraft and the forces experienced can not be replicated in a chair at home. 
 

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14 minutes ago, CobaltUK said:

When 2 pilots say the flight model is seriously off i would like to know about the credentials of those who maintain that's not so.

The feedback of experienced pilots is certainly not something to dismiss completely, but it is also not the end all/be all of flight modeling. For one thing, you can't really turn it into math like you can with flight envelope charts and CFD. Through out the video they both comment on the differences between sim and reality that influence their perception and how they fly (ie feeling g and what the aircraft is doing). It would help their claim if they could provide more quantitative data along with their qualitative comments, but they might not be in a position where they are allowed to do that.

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5 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Through out the video they both comment on the differences between sim and reality that influence their perception and how they fly (ie feeling g and what the aircraft is doing). It would help their claim if they could provide more quantitative data along with their qualitative comments, but they might not be in a position where they are allowed to do that.

That's true, but they made those statements when looking at the Tacview after action exam - and there one could also see the data of the flight envelope. If Tacview doesn't register wrong data then there should be everything shown ED needs to check back with their own data if there is something off or not. Maybe there are that much differences between several Block releases so that  BL25..42 F-16s perform that much different than the BL50 mainly simulated in DCS? But that's something ED should easily be able to check on their own without even the need of user track files (if not daily flight conditions have such a big impact on the performance as well so they need the exact weather and climate data of that session, too?)

As Mover reacted above, too, maybe he would like to emphasise a little more on this matter without crossing any red lines - or maybe he'd like to send his Tacview-Recording directly to ED (I didn't want to share the video of it, because its his channel and clip, but if one takes a quick research it should be easy to find on Youtube...)

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Just reiterate, 

we have tested our viper with the real world data and it is correct, if there are track replay's that we can check that shows it is wrong we will take a look.  

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This particular situation is not very easy to analyze because the Viper is nose down and trading some altitude for speed, so it's a bit tricky to just look up the charts. That said, the usual HAF -1 performance supplement at 15k ft, with zero drag index and a GW of 22000 lb (which is ~40% fuel, so likely a bit below where this fight happened since they had just taken off) shows that around Mach ~0.7/0.8 (around where Mover was) your available sustained G is like 6-7 ish, and if you're going to go above that you will lose energy. 9G is around Ps = -600. That is consistent with Mover being nose down in the turn - you are never going to hold 9G at 15k ft without trading some altitude for speed, and turning that speed into turning perfromance.

To me the correct way to frame the question is - OK, going by ED's report, let's say that the FM is correct for Ps = 0. That doesn't mean it also is when Ps < 0, which is where the jet was after the first merge shown. It could easily be a case of "when Ps=0 the FM is right, but as soon as we bleed some energy, we end up bleeding too much" or something. We know for a fact the g-onset and instantaneous turn rates are not quite right after all.

edit: edited the post because I found the performance charts with the GE engine


Edited by TLTeo
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8 minutes ago, schmiefel said:

That's true, but they made those statements when looking at the Tacview after action exam - and there one could also see the data of the flight envelope. If Tacview doesn't register wrong data then there should be everything shown ED needs to check back with their own data if there is something off or not. Maybe there are that much differences between several Block releases so that  BL25..42 F-16s perform that much different than the BL50 mainly simulated in DCS? But that's something ED should easily be able to check on their own without even the need of user track files (if not daily flight conditions have such a big impact on the performance as well so they need the exact weather and climate data of that session, too?)

As Mover reacted above, too, maybe he would like to emphasise a little more on this matter without crossing any red lines - or maybe he'd like to send his Tacview-Recording directly to ED (I didn't want to share the video of it, because its his channel and clip, but if one takes a quick research it should be easy to find on Youtube...)

 

None of what we did was ever intended to be a full up analysis or commentary on the game.  It was simply a fun way to get the word out about the charity tournament for a worthy cause.  

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I was wondering when Mover's video would be weaponised lol

 

It's worth mentioning that Mover's list of Viper's flown does NOT include the block 50. Now, how much difference that actually makes I do not know, but it's something to keep in mind before we run off to screech on the forums.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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1 hour ago, Mover said:

 

None of what we did was ever intended to be a full up analysis or commentary on the game.  It was simply a fun way to get the word out about the charity tournament for a worthy cause.  

Yes we know that for you Sir its just a game. But for us its something more than just a simple game. It is very annoying when in BFM you lose with anyone who flies anything other than Viper, no matter what you do. I thought the Viper was one of the best dogfighters, not the worst.

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15 minutes ago, Versor said:

Yes we know that for you Sir its just a game. But for us its something more than just a simple game. It is very annoying when in BFM you lose with anyone who flies anything other than Viper, no matter what you do. I thought the Viper was one of the best dogfighters, not the worst.

  You aren't going to lose just over a degree or two a second. If that was the case in real life air forces would compare spreadsheets and ''pick the winner''. If you lose, 99% of the time it is because you were outflown, not because ''le stats are off 5%''

 

 

  How many of you are thinking in terms of gamer meta reaaaaaallllly emphasises the video game nature of this stuff.


Edited by Mars Exulte
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Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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The HAF manual also shows a considerably lower landing speed which indicates some inaccuracy on low speeds, and I expect some changes in that field with one of the next updates. Other than that, it matches the HAF performance sheets pretty much.
Basically the area below 200-250kts is slightly off right now.

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36 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

I was wondering when Mover's video would be weaponised lol

 

It's worth mentioning that Mover's list of Viper's flown does NOT include the block 50. Now, how much difference that actually makes I do not know, but it's something to keep in mind before we run off to screech on the forums.

Worth mentioning but largely irrelevant, imho.  But, again, not the intent of any of these videos.  

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1 minute ago, Mover said:

Worth mentioning but largely irrelevant, imho.  But, again, not the intent of any of these videos.  

   I know, but if they're going to nitpick over spreadsheets they at least need to use the right ones lol

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Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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4 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

   I know, but if they're going to nitpick over spreadsheets they at least need to use the right ones lol

I agree.  The bottom line, as you've pointed out so many times - this is a work in progress, a video game, and limited by the information publicly available.  Even real, DOD contracted, Secret-level sims are not used for this type of training and don't get it 100% right.  There's a reason for the term "sim-ism" in squadrons.  

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So you all know I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, I'm taking the Viper for the FoH tournie and I've got a raging hardon for Hornets. Strap up tight, boys, I'm goin' in dry!

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Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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