DCS F16 performance

[Hiob]

Folds of honor is guns only, isn’t it?

Is there any chance, they add a fox-2 discipline?

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Can't really say i notice much difference, the only thing is that you can actually hold some speed in a turn (carefully) and you don't bleed all of it instantly with every move. 
The margin is still small and you can still bleed your speed really easily under G, but the way it was : under G you either went > 500 knots or 0. 

The transition between equilibrium and losing speed is a bit more smooth and less sharp. That's all i notice. 

To me at least It feels much more realistic now. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Mover]

20 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Folds of honor is guns only, isn’t it?

Is there any chance, they add a fox-2 discipline?

Guns only.

[Hiob]

Thanks for the clarification!

[Hummingbird]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Just reiterate, 

we have tested our viper with the real world data and it is correct, if there are track replay's that we can check that shows it is wrong we will take a look.  

 

ITR is still a bit too low however.

 

22,000 lbs, clean, 25% fuel (unlimited), ICAO std. day 15 C, sea level no wind:

 

 

9.0 @ 432 KTAS / 0.653 M

8.9 @ 416 KTAS /  0.628 M

8.8 @ 409 KTAS /  0.618 M

8.7 @ 404 KTAS /  0.610 M

8.6 @ 399 KTAS /  0.603 M

8.5 @ 394 KTAS /  0.595 M

8.4 @ 388 KTAS /  0.586 M

8.3 @ 383 KTAS /  0.579 M

8.2 @ 378 KTAS /  0.571 M

8.1 @  373 KTAS /  0.563 M

8.0 @ 368 KTAS /  0.556 M

--------------

7.9 @ 363 KTAS /  0.548 M

7.8 @ 359 KTAS /  0.542 M

7.7 @ 354 KTAS /  0.535 M

7.6 @ 350 KTAS /  0.529 M

7.5 @ 345 KTAS /  0.521 M

7.4 @ 341 KTAS /  0.515 M

7.3 @ 338 KTAS /  0.511 M

7.2 @ 332 KTAS / 0.501 M

7.1 @ 327 KTAS /  0.494 M

7.0 @ 323 KTAS /  0.488 M

 

The above figures overlayed on the real life chart:

Spoiler

 

 

Now this could ofcourse be down to FLCS logic, which also affects G-onset. We'll see once the next FM update hits.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Hummingbird

[John McClane]

8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

So you all know I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, I'm taking the Viper for the FoH tournie and I've got a raging hardon for Hornets. Strap up tight, boys, I'm goin' in dry!

Same. I did last year and made it to the last day. Of course they started streaming right after I lost. 

I was talking to a Viper pilot at an airshow and tried to feel him out on the specific performance of the jet. He did say while holding 9G and in full burner the jet will accelerate below 10k’ not bleed off energy. How true that is I have no idea. But I do know pilot feedback should not be overlooked. I can quote some very specific performance figures on aircraft I have a lot of hours in. There are some things you just dont forget. 

[Hummingbird]

4 hours ago, John McClane said:

Same. I did last year and made it to the last day. Of course they started streaming right after I lost. 

I was talking to a Viper pilot at an airshow and tried to feel him out on the specific performance of the jet. He did say while holding 9G and in full burner the jet will accelerate below 10k’ not bleed off energy. How true that is I have no idea. But I do know pilot feedback should not be overlooked. I can quote some very specific performance figures on aircraft I have a lot of hours in. There are some things you just dont forget. 

 

Well so will the DCS F-16.

Thing is you need to be at a certain speed depending on  altitude, weight & configuration for this to be the case. For example at sea level and 22,000 lbs clean, the F-16C will accelerate whilst pulling 9 G at speeds of over M 0.7.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Oceandar]

Talking about 9G.... can you pull 9G right now in DCS at least 10 sec without blacking out ?

[Mars Exulte]

7 hours ago, John McClane said:

Same. I did last year and made it to the last day. Of course they started streaming right after I lost.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Mars Exulte

[Mars Exulte]

3 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

Well so will the DCS F-16.

Thing is you need to be at a certain speed depending on  altitude, weight & configuration for this to be the case.

  Can confirm, it only took a few minutes of testing before I noticed I can pull permanent 8.5-9g turns if I'm in the sweet spot. Approximately 450-500kts. Thing is it requires a bit of maintenance, it seems to either want to keep building speed (in which case you're doing 600+ and getting waaaay too wide) or you pull a little too hard and it starts bleeding off. But yes, you can keep it in a constant turn where the only limiting factor is the ingame g-effect (which seems to start kicking in around 8.5g), but with a little modulation you can surge up into the 9s and then back off just a bit, repeat until target is ded.

 

  I'm increasingly of the opinion the reason RL fighter pilots aren't doing it is because they aren't used to the absence of g effects, are not ''pro gamers'' and are getting too heavy handed with our toylike controls. The DCS Viper will definitely pull steady 9gs without severely bleeding speed, but you have to work it a bit, not just ''yenk stik to win''.

 

Only complaint I have about the Viper is the weird pseudo deadzone in the controls, which prompted me to assign a NEGATIVE curvature for the first time in gaming history to get rid of the mushy center. Now it's too twitchy on the outside, but meh. I'll take it.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Mars Exulte

[Mover]

37 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  I'm increasingly of the opinion the reason RL fighter pilots aren't doing it is because they aren't used to the absence of g effects, are not ''pro gamers'' and are getting too heavy handed with our toylike controls. The DCS Viper will definitely pull steady 9gs without severely bleeding speed, but you have to work it a bit, not just ''yenk stik to win''.

 

This is likely true in any other jet, but does not jive with the Viper FLCS and how it works.  

[FireNLD]

12 minutes ago, Mover said:

This is likely true in any other jet, but does not jive with the Viper FLCS and how it works.  

Curious how this is compared to the DCS F/A18.

 

52 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

Only complaint I have about the Viper is the weird pseudo deadzone in the controls, which prompted me to assign a NEGATIVE curvature for the first time in gaming history to get rid of the mushy center. Now it's too twitchy on the outside, but meh. I'll take it.

One thing i noticed is that when you make an input, especially on the pitch axis, it kind of lags behind or feels like latency and 'bounces'. Does that also apply for curvature settin?

[Mars Exulte]

19 minutes ago, FireNLD said:

One thing i noticed is that when you make an input, especially on the pitch axis, it kind of lags behind or feels like latency and 'bounces'. Does that also apply for curvature settin?

  Mmm, I dunno. Like I said, it felt like  a deadzone to me. I have a really long stick extension, so I can be very precise. In the very center, to me it feels like it doesn't do anything until I deflect ''more than usual''. I countered it with a -10 curve, which made it responsive to even very small movements in the center, but it has aggravated handling once you get farther out. Part of what's making maneuvering in the sweet spot hard for me is I'm only using a very, very small portion of my total range of motion in comparison to when I was flying the F-18 recently. It's like with the Viper, I'm flying with my fingertips for 9g turns and aggressive maneuvers.

 

I dunno. I've only got a few hours messing with it, so I'm still adjusting settings and learning its characteristics. I know the drama about it is overblown, but it definitely has some things that feel wonky to me, but they're on the game UI side of things, not the modeling itself.

 

-edit

To clarify, I had more issue with how roll responded than pitch, but they both felt like they had a deadzone, just roll was worse.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Mars Exulte

[metzger]

1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Mmm, I dunno. Like I said, it felt like  a deadzone to me. I have a really long stick extension, so I can be very precise. In the very center, to me it feels like it doesn't do anything until I deflect ''more than usual''. I countered it with a -10 curve, which made it responsive to even very small movements in the center, but it has aggravated handling once you get farther out. Part of what's making maneuvering in the sweet spot hard for me is I'm only using a very, very small portion of my total range of motion in comparison to when I was flying the F-18 recently. It's like with the Viper, I'm flying with my fingertips for 9g turns and aggressive maneuvers.

 

I dunno. I've only got a few hours messing with it, so I'm still adjusting settings and learning its characteristics. I know the drama about it is overblown, but it definitely has some things that feel wonky to me, but they're on the game UI side of things, not the modeling itself.

 

-edit

To clarify, I had more issue with how roll responded than pitch, but they both felt like they had a deadzone, just roll was worse.

 

Well, you can't compare your hall sensor extended joystick with the Force sensing Viper stick and FLCS designed for it. According to docs, the Viper requires about 16nM force for full stick deflection which you probably can't even do with two hands without the G help. It might also explain to some degree why irl pilots are so heavy on pulling the stick

EDIT: I'm using the real simulator FSSB3 lightning force sensing base with set to approx 8Nm force and Viper controls feels perfectly fine without any curves.

Edited November 15, 2021 by metzger

[Mars Exulte]

I dunno what to say to that except the overwhelming majority of simmers are not using the FFB, so if the box is not checked in the game options, then they shouldn't be doing any wonky stuff to ''emulate'' it. I'll recheck the options when I get home, I have recently had a ghost altering settings, presumably after a patch, but I haven't thought to check that one specifically.

[BIGNEWY]

Please keep on topic, if you think you have found a problem attach a short track replay showing it.

thanks

[Versor]

1 hour ago, metzger said:

Well, you can't compare your hall sensor extended joystick with the Force sensing Viper stick and FLCS designed for it. According to docs, the Viper requires about 16nM force for full stick deflection which you probably can't even do with two hands without the G help. It might also explain to some degree why irl pilots are so heavy on pulling the stick

EDIT: I'm using the real simulator FSSB3 lightning force sensing base with set to approx 8Nm force and Viper controls feels perfectly fine without any curves.

 

I have the same. Saitek X65F works great with Viper without any curves.

[RuskyV]

I think different hardware combinations available all have their own characteristics having their own role in the experience,  using the FSSB R3 force sensing stick has the benefit of extremely good resolution and with no in game curves applied allows for a very accurate way of pulling and maintaining G-force. 

Before I shelved out on the R3 I was using the warthog base and the experience is vastly different between the two bits of hardware. 

I don't think there is right or wrong..

[Hummingbird]

20 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

ITR is still a bit too low however.

 

22,000 lbs, clean, 25% fuel (unlimited), ICAO std. day 15 C, sea level no wind:

 

 

9.0 @ 432 KTAS / 0.653 M

8.9 @ 416 KTAS /  0.628 M

8.8 @ 409 KTAS /  0.618 M

8.7 @ 404 KTAS /  0.610 M

8.6 @ 399 KTAS /  0.603 M

8.5 @ 394 KTAS /  0.595 M

8.4 @ 388 KTAS /  0.586 M

8.3 @ 383 KTAS /  0.579 M

8.2 @ 378 KTAS /  0.571 M

8.1 @  373 KTAS /  0.563 M

8.0 @ 368 KTAS /  0.556 M

--------------

7.9 @ 363 KTAS /  0.548 M

7.8 @ 359 KTAS /  0.542 M

7.7 @ 354 KTAS /  0.535 M

7.6 @ 350 KTAS /  0.529 M

7.5 @ 345 KTAS /  0.521 M

7.4 @ 341 KTAS /  0.515 M

7.3 @ 338 KTAS /  0.511 M

7.2 @ 332 KTAS / 0.501 M

7.1 @ 327 KTAS /  0.494 M

7.0 @ 323 KTAS /  0.488 M

 

The above figures overlayed on the real life chart:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Now this could ofcourse be down to FLCS logic, which also affects G-onset. We'll see once the next FM update hits.

 

 

Just realized my recording wasn't in the best image quality (although you can still make out the numbers in the infobar), hence I just re-did the test in 1080p to make sure the numbers are clear for everyone to see. The results were obviously the same, now it's just easier to see the infobar numbers:

 

[MAXsenna]

I dunno what to say to that except the overwhelming majority of simmers are not using the FFB, so if the box is not checked in the game options, then they shouldn't be doing any wonky stuff to ''emulate'' it. I'll recheck the options when I get home, I have recently had a ghost altering settings, presumably after a patch, but I haven't thought to check that one specifically.

FFB is force feedback, as you know, not the RealSim force sensing base they're talking about.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Mars Exulte]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

FFB is force feedback, as you know, not the RealSim force sensing base they're talking about.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

Distinction noted, sorry. I've never used either, and thought it was variations of the same thing.

[BIGNEWY]

2 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

Just realized my recording wasn't in the best image quality (although you can still make out the numbers in the infobar), hence I just re-did the test in 1080p to make sure the numbers are clear for everyone to see. The results were obviously the same, now it's just easier to see the infobar numbers:

 

We need to see track replays of the test, videos are not enough.

[bies]

All this video argument can potentially be flawed since experienced pilot like C.W Lemoine would feel the Gs and AoA during turn and he would know exactly what to do to keep the aircraft at corner speeed.

Here i've seen them flying ~200 kts and still pulling all the way, being surprised the aircraft is losing speed at 3.5G - well, even the best turning aircrafts like lightweight F-16A or Eurofighter or Raptor would lose the whole speed flying 200kts turning all the way. If he would feel the Gs and AoA like he did IRL he would know very well how hard to pull to maintain the speed and run around the circle at 9G.

That's why ED is posting tables, NASA wind tunnels and DCS comparision which are very close.

I MAY BE WRONG, but for me it's all about trained experienced RL pilot not feeling the aircraft physically, habits from RL flying. But overall it's good for the DCS when RL pilots try the sim and judge it, we can only benefit.

 

(Plus all real life F-16 pilots giving their opinion on "F-16.net" about different F-16 variants in BFM agreed F-16C Block 50 is considerably weaker in BFM due to additional mass than F-16A with way lower wing loading, way smaller inertia and way better fuel consumption with similar T/W. Or even F-16C Block 30 with higher T/W and lower wing loading.)

Quote

"The block 50/60 series are still very good airplanes, and lightly loaded, more than capable of holding their own in a fight. But, because of their higher weight, they just can't turn as quick as the earlier blocks could.
This was lamented by some of the pilots I had at Eglin- we had block 15's through block 50's there. The pilots loved the power and avionics capability of the 50's, but in a straight out visual guns 'fight', the lighter blocks held the upper hand in maneuvering."

Quote

tailgate
"No worries. Now between blocks (F-16), the Block 30 was the best performer in ACM. The block 30 had the best acceleration of them all. Don't get me wrong, the -129 is a kick in the pants, but the Block 50 also grew a little in the weight department... :)"
Jim
 

Quote

"Scorpion1alpha   F-16.net Moderator
On the F-16, yes, the Blk 50 is all about power. But if I had to choose which Viper to BFM in, then it's the Blk 30."

Quote

magnum4469
"Back in the day the Blk 30 (both big and small mouth) and Blk 40 were known as "Lead Nose Vipers" when flying against Blk 15s (F-16A) in similar configuration dogfighting. And yes I know they could haul more iron and had better avionics but once they hit the merge the Blk 15 had a distinct advantage."
 

Quote

Gero Finke

"The F-16 is a very capable weapon system in all respects! Of course there are „thousands“ of variations flying around. If you are strictly focussing on WVR („Dog Fight“) engagements, some aspects on the more modern variants are not helping. The engines got bigger and bigger, the stuff they put in and on the airframe got more and more, but what remained is a pretty small wing area that has to deliver the lift.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by bies

[Mirage2425]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

We need to see track replays of the test, videos are not enough.

BIGNEWY, have you or or any anyone working for ED flown the jet?  I suggest you don't discount those that have.  I'm not good enough at BFM to provide the track data you ask for but I will try to work with someone that is.  Until then I suggest you approach Mover's impression of the Viper with a little more respect.  Mover had proven he's a SME for the platform and what you've said has discounted his experience with the Viper.  I love the Viper and all of the work you guys have done.  Please keep this in mind when you read my response.

[NineLine]

19 minutes ago, Mirage2425 said:

BIGNEWY, have you or or any anyone working for ED flown the jet?  I suggest you don't discount those that have.  I'm not good enough at BFM to provide the track data you ask for but I will try to work with someone that is.  Until then I suggest you approach Mover's impression of the Viper with a little more respect.  Mover had proven he's a SME for the platform and what you've said has discounted his experience with the Viper.  I love the Viper and all of the work you guys have done.  Please keep this in mind when you read my response.

Hey look, we love Mover's videos and his feedback, and Wags has reached out to him about his concerns. So far nothing has come up that we se an issue with. We actually have SME's, in fact Wags spends a ton of time in communication with a Viper pilot, he has shown pictures with him on these forums, etc. But again, this doesn't mean we discount what Mover has said, but there are also some key things to note. He talks about muscle memory, and from my time doing this, and talking and hearing from a number of SME's this can be the hardest thing to overcome with the transfer from the Real Thing to a Sim/Game. What I mean is no matter how good or how much we spend on our desktop controls, it will NEVER be the same as the real thing, and sitting in the seat, like Mover talking about bracing for G's out of instinct, this reminds me of Simon, our Business Director who was also a back-seater in a Tornado. We bugged him for some time as when he is flying DCS in VR, he is actually breathing like he is getting ready to take G's, simply from habit. 

Anyways, the bottom line this this. Yes we have people that have flown the real thing, yes we listen to people like Mover. No, beyond G-onset which is known, we still haven't found any issues or concerns that need addressing with the FM. No body is discounting any feedback, but also, its not always so black and white.