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DCS F16 performance


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Perhaps the Viper is very well developed, but in confrontation with the Hornet, it is very poor because the Hornet is very different from reality due to the lack of appropriate documentation to verify its flight model?

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23 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Hey look, we love Mover's videos and his feedback, and Wags has reached out to him about his concerns. So far nothing has come up that we se an issue with. We actually have SME's, in fact Wags spends a ton of time in communication with a Viper pilot, he has shown pictures with him on these forums, etc. But again, this doesn't mean we discount what Mover has said, but there are also some key things to note. He talks about muscle memory, and from my time doing this, and talking and hearing from a number of SME's this can be the hardest thing to overcome with the transfer from the Real Thing to a Sim/Game. What I mean is no matter how good or how much we spend on our desktop controls, it will NEVER be the same as the real thing, and sitting in the seat, like Mover talking about bracing for G's out of instinct, this reminds me of Simon, our Business Director who was also a back-seater in a Tornado. We bugged him for some time as when he is flying DCS in VR, he is actually breathing like he is getting ready to take G's, simply from habit. 

Anyways, the bottom line this this. Yes we have people that have flown the real thing, yes we listen to people like Mover. No, beyond G-onset which is known, we still haven't found any issues or concerns that need addressing with the FM. No body is discounting any feedback, but also, its not always so black and white.

Thank-you NineLine, this is exactly the transparency the community has been looking for.  You will always have haters but I'm not one of those.  I appreciate everything you guys have done.  I've always been a major supporter of the military.  I wanted to be a military pilot myself but it didn't work out.  Anyway, the comment rubbed me the wrong way but I think it was just a matter of interpretation.  Please keep talking to us and providing us this detail.  We all appreciate it!

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4 minutes ago, 13WELT_JankeS said:

Perhaps the Viper is very well developed, but in confrontation with the Hornet, it is very poor because the Hornet is very different from reality due to the lack of appropriate documentation to verify its flight model?

I've done a lot of DCS BFM in both.  If the F-16 pilot is very, very good it can hold an equal rate with the Hornet (and an average pilot).  Short of that scenario, the Hornet wins the rate fight, no paddle switch needed.

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8 minutes ago, gavagai said:

I've done a lot of DCS BFM in both.  If the F-16 pilot is very, very good it can hold an equal rate with the Hornet (and an average pilot).  Short of that scenario, the Hornet wins the rate fight, no paddle switch needed.

Exactly - but if this is what it should be like in reality?

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1 hour ago, NineLine said:

No, beyond G-onset which is known

and maybe, as already mentioned by many of us, improve the ITR too ? or G-onset and ITR are linked ?

since the last update 2.7.7.15038, the overall behavior of the Viper is still much better 🙂

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2 hours ago, 13WELT_JankeS said:

Exactly - but if this is what it should be like in reality?

According to Gonky the Hornet should aim for a one circle fight against the F-16 or Mig-29, i.e. not a rate fight.

It's worth noting that they also observed the F-16 to be too fast at low altitude, with mover saying he overspeeded the jet.

These are just my observations of the videos and not a criticism of DCS.  Of course the simulation will never be exactly like the real thing, but we also hope for a certain level of verisimilitude so that the expectations of real life pilots agree with the most salient behaviors seen in the simulation.


Edited by gavagai

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Its sad that this fight Mover and Gonky did was before ED claimed the F16 FM tuning to be finished. And maybe the F18 FM is still undergoing revision. Dont know about the current state here, I have not been in the F18 subforum for a long time since the F16 came out.

I was hoping the F16 FM would have been adressed as a whole and not just sustained TR, and then again 2 updates without any of the other announced FM changes.

This seems to produce again a pointless discussion about an F16 FM work in progress... Counting the days until this thread is getting locked like the others.

I hope Mover can arrange a rematch after ED states that the F16 FM finetuning is finally done.

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8 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Its sad that this fight Mover and Gonky did was before ED claimed the F16 FM tuning to be finished. And maybe the F18 FM is still undergoing revision. Dont know about the current state here, I have not been in the F18 subforum for a long time since the F16 came out.

I was hoping the F16 FM would have been adressed as a whole and not just sustained TR, and then again 2 updates without any of the other announced FM changes.

This seems to produce again a pointless discussion about an F16 FM work in progress... Counting the days until this thread is getting locked like the others.

I hope Mover can arrange a rematch after ED states that the F16 FM finetuning is finally done.

To be honest with you, whether or not Mover and Gonky got into this, i feel like most of the time, this "arm wrestling for correctness" whether one or the other plane flies correctly between the 16 and the 18 is mostly about people not accepting that their favorite planes gets beaten by the other, therefore simply a matter of ego that people blame on the FM of either plane.

Of coarse people would throw rocks at me for saying this, but it's simply the feeling i get over time reading these never ending discussions.

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Starting at 500 knots, at sea level with 6000lbs of gas, I can definitely reproduce the "arcing" described by mover in the video.  The F-16 will hold 9g and start accelerating (g effects turned off because you can't hold 9g long before blackout).  Below that it wasn't possible until more fuel burned off.  As fuel burns the minimum speed to hold 9g decreases to about 480 knots when you hear "bingo."

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2 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Its sad that this fight Mover and Gonky did was before ED claimed the F16 FM tuning to be finished. And maybe the F18 FM is still undergoing revision. Dont know about the current state here, I have not been in the F18 subforum for a long time since the F16 came out.

I was hoping the F16 FM would have been adressed as a whole and not just sustained TR, and then again 2 updates without any of the other announced FM changes.

This seems to produce again a pointless discussion about an F16 FM work in progress... Counting the days until this thread is getting locked like the others.

I hope Mover can arrange a rematch after ED states that the F16 FM finetuning is finally done.

  Or people could read the whole discussion before jumping on the bandwagon and accept that maybe things are being taken somewhat out of context with unrealistic expectations.

 

  Literally... every... single... fm thread ends up degenerating into a horde of armchair experts lamenting how it doesn't match their expectations because they're 1337 pilots and EVERYBODY KNOWS trivia. The whole mess tends to reek of crusty cheetos, flat mountain dew, and excess time.

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12 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

We need to see track replays of the test, videos are not enough.

Ok, how come? I thought the track replays didn't work and the aircraft were bouncing all over the place..

 

But I'll provide a track replay once I get back home later today then. 


Edited by Hummingbird
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9 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

Ok, how come? I thought the track replays didn't work and the aircraft were bouncing all over the place..

 

But I'll provide a track replay once I get back home later today then. 

 

because we have tested many times, the figures are correct, we want to see tracks showing it is wrong, and your methods for testing. 

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13 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

Ok, how come? I thought the track replays didn't work and the aircraft were bouncing all over the place..

If you give us a simple short replay there is no issue generally, especially if you view them on the same version they were created, you know this, this shouldn't be a surprise. If you can reproduce an error in the FM, and you can show that you are flying it correctly and not seeing the expected results, then we can act on it. This is all the same stuff you have been told for years now. 

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4 minutes ago, NineLine said:

If you give us a simple short replay there is no issue generally, especially if you view them on the same version they were created, you know this, this shouldn't be a surprise. If you can reproduce an error in the FM, and you can show that you are flying it correctly and not seeing the expected results, then we can act on it. This is all the same stuff you have been told for years now. 

 

No, I didn't know that the track replays worked at all. Otherwise I would've naturally provided it, it's the easiest thing in the world.


Edited by Hummingbird
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  • ED Team
9 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

 

No, I didn't know that the track replays worked at all. Otherwise I would've naturally provided it, it's the easiest thing in the world.

 

keep tracks as short as possible to show the problem, single player is best, only include the units you need to show a problem. 

Keep it unscripted, don't use unofficial mods or edits for the tests and generally the tracks are fine. 

I know this as I work with tracks all day every day. 

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1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

keep tracks as short as possible to show the problem, single player is best, only include the units you need to show a problem. 

Keep it unscripted, don't use unofficial mods or edits for the tests and generally the tracks are fine. 

I know this as I work with tracks all day every day. 

 

Copy that, will make sure it's only one aircraft then. Don't use any mods, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Will quickly redo the test and send the track once I get home.


Edited by Hummingbird
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12 hours ago, 13WELT_JankeS said:

Perhaps the Viper is very well developed, but in confrontation with the Hornet, it is very poor because the Hornet is very different from reality due to the lack of appropriate documentation to verify its flight model?

This is where I would put my money too. Unfortunately, due to the lack of publicly available data it is hard to prove. Maybe the F-18 FM review will bringe some change in that direction. 

Regards,

Snappy

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I think as a whole we are underestimating the effects that ITR and G-onset will have on the FM. Once ED figures this out, and only then will we be able to make a fair assessment.   

I for one believe the data is correct in regards to STR but we need better ITR, G onset and AOA induced drag modelling. I believe with these factors in place the "feel" and handling of the Viper will dramatically change. 

Hopefully the answer and updated flight model is not too far off... 

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So the main criticism depicted in the Mover vs Gonky dogfighting video is about the viper's energy loss in a turn. Mover as well as Gonky are pretty clear on this.

So it's not about g-onset, ITR or STR, which can be modelled more or less accurately using the E-M diagrams.

Does ED have sufficient data for the parasitic/induced drag for the viper?

It does seem there is a grey area.

Also, one credible anecdote can be dismissed. But not multiple anecdotes by professionals, real viper drivers. Including Mover's blk50 buddies, who allegedly claim that even the blk50 wouldn't be as draggy as the current DCS Viper.

I don't think the public E-M diagrams speak the whole truth, and is there anybody who verified those against the real aircraft?


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56 minutes ago, feipan said:

Does ED have sufficient data for the parasitic/induced drag for the viper?

I have seen Mover's videos with the TacView debrief, and one thing that I remember him comment on is that the Viper seemed to go beyond the AoA limiter quite regularly. Even if the drag modeling were correct (which I'm inclined to think, it's probably not, because turbulent airflow is complicated), you'd be bleeding speed faster at 30 AoA than at the 26 AoA that it's supposed to be limited to, so maybe what's actually causing this problem is the simulation of the flight control system.

Anyhow, as I already said in another thread, I think all of this turn-performance, dogfight, acceleration, etc. stuff is way overrated with regards to gameplay and/or realism. I mean, it's kinda close enough to make it fun to play, and even if you're really that much interested in realism, there are other problems - both, in the sim and in people's tactics or even basic airmanship - that are way bigger problems for in-game realism than how fast your jet is going around the corner.

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3 hours ago, feipan said:

So it's not about g-onset, ITR or STR, which can be modelled more or less accurately using the E-M diagrams.

I don't fully agree with this statement as ITR and g onset when modelled more correctly will both have an effect on AOA and succinctly AOA induced drag.

The three variables are codependant in this regard and needs to be calibrated from a holistic viewpoint in order to give the full representation of the jet.

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3 hours ago, Aquorys said:

I have seen Mover's videos with the TacView debrief, and one thing that I remember him comment on is that the Viper seemed to go beyond the AoA limiter quite regularly. Even if the drag modeling were correct (which I'm inclined to think, it's probably not, because turbulent airflow is complicated), you'd be bleeding speed faster at 30 AoA than at the 26 AoA that it's supposed to be limited to, so maybe what's actually causing this problem is the simulation of the flight control system.

That's assuming the Tacview is accurate. I've seen TV make mistakes before, and Mover and Gonky were also playing over multiplayer, no? Funny things can happen in MP to keep things synced up for both parties.

 

I don't fly the Viper anymore, or have time to do it, but it would be worth testing to see if you guys can get 30 AOA in single player, record a track, and send it to BN or 9L.


Edited by Callsign JoNay
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