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Trim accumulate errors


X_legio

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Maybe I am doing something wrong but I am facing this situation.

I have understood the trim work, set them to default with no rudder trim, fly with the usual 3 ap no fd.

Now, that is the issue, I take off and flight, trim trim trim all is ok but after a while the ka start to become difficult to fly, seems he doesn't accept well the new input. So I hit the trim reset button and the beast after pitching up ( normal) start to fly well again, trim trim trim and he fly well for a while....

What is the problem ?

 

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21 hours ago, X_legio said:

Maybe I am doing something wrong but I am facing this situation.

I have understood the trim work, set them to default with no rudder trim, fly with the usual 3 ap no fd.

Now, that is the issue, I take off and flight, trim trim trim all is ok but after a while the ka start to become difficult to fly, seems he doesn't accept well the new input. So I hit the trim reset button and the beast after pitching up ( normal) start to fly well again, trim trim trim and he fly well for a while....

What is the problem ?

What does your controls indicator tell you?

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Have you made acquainted yourself with the KA-50 systems yet? If not, you should do first to understand how weapon, navigation and autopilot systems mesh and affect the flight control of the KA-50. Their handling might be counter-intuitive in the beginning.

To your question:

OPTIONS

1. Check in the OPIONS MENUE / MISC. if the "FORCE FEEDBACK" is "NOT TICKED" (You have no Force Feedback stick)

2. Check in the OPIONS MENUE / SPECIAL / KA-50 / if "TRIMMER MODE" is set to "DEFAULT" (You have a regular spring joystick or joystick without spring)

3. Check in the OPIONS MENUE / SPECIAL / KA-50 / if "RUDDER TRIMMER" is "NOT TICKED" (Trim button only operates the cyclic control, it does not trim the rudder)

 

INFLIGHT

4. Turn on autopilot (all channels)

Channels

1. Pitch dampener & Pitch hold. Enables pitch autopilot channel. -> ON
2. Bank dampener & Bank hold. Enables bank autopilot channel. -> ON
3. Lateral dampener & Heading/course hold. Enables lateral autopilot channel. -> ON

4. Turn on FLIGHT DIRECTOR (FD)

In flight director mode Pitch hold, Bank hold and Heading /course hold are disabled, but all dampeners still working.

NOW you can test trimming again and see, if it works all right, because the FD lets you control the angular position of the KA-50 NON-INTERACTING with autopilot respectively the navigation system. I'm quite sure you won't experience any problems testing the trimming this way.

Flying with autopilots / navigation system is another story, but it is extremely well documented in great manuals in the internet or in utube videos.

Happy flying! 🚁

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7 ore fa, Taz1004 ha scritto:

What does your controls indicator tell you?

Control indicators ?

 

2 ore fa, Fastbreak ha scritto:

Have you made acquainted yourself with the KA-50 systems yet? If not, you should do first to understand how weapon, navigation and autopilot systems mesh and affect the flight control of the KA-50. Their handling might be counter-intuitive in the beginning.

To your question:

OPTIONS

1. Check in the OPIONS MENUE / MISC. if the "FORCE FEEDBACK" is "NOT TICKED" (You have no Force Feedback stick)

2. Check in the OPIONS MENUE / SPECIAL / KA-50 / if "TRIMMER MODE" is set to "DEFAULT" (You have a regular spring joystick or joystick without spring)

3. Check in the OPIONS MENUE / SPECIAL / KA-50 / if "RUDDER TRIMMER" is "NOT TICKED" (Trim button only operates the cyclic control, it does not trim the rudder)

 

INFLIGHT

4. Turn on autopilot (all channels)

Channels

1. Pitch dampener & Pitch hold. Enables pitch autopilot channel. -> ON
2. Bank dampener & Bank hold. Enables bank autopilot channel. -> ON
3. Lateral dampener & Heading/course hold. Enables lateral autopilot channel. -> ON

4. Turn on FLIGHT DIRECTOR (FD)

In flight director mode Pitch hold, Bank hold and Heading /course hold are disabled, but all dampeners still working.

NOW you can test trimming again and see, if it works all right, because the FD lets you control the angular position of the KA-50 NON-INTERACTING with autopilot respectively the navigation system. I'm quite sure you won't experience any problems testing the trimming this way.

Flying with autopilots / navigation system is another story, but it is extremely well documented in great manuals in the internet or in utube videos.

Happy flying! 🚁

Thank you very much, my setting are the same but I tend not to use the FD, will try it asap.

Another question, when in autohover the Altitude AP engage automatically, but to disengage I have to push the button right ?

 

 

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Short version, a lot of the issues people have with the Ka-50 is not using the autopilot properly and creating their own issues.

 

You do not casually fly around with all three ap channels engaged. When you trim, if you do, the whole idea is the helicopter always tries to bring you back to the heading, pitch, and altitude of YOUR LAST TRIM. Ever notice how when you're turning it goes real easy one direction and not the other, when logically, it should turn equally well either direction? THAT'S the heading channel. It's trying to bring you back one direction and using its full authority to fight you going the wrong way.

 

Only use the channels you ACTUALLY DESIRE at that moment. If you're just following waypoints, yes, that may be all three + fd. But if you're cruising around, in combat, etc, you probably don't care about ''your last trim point''.

 

As soon as I see somebody mention flying around ''with all three channels'' that's a big red flag they do not understand what they actually do.

 

As for reseting trim, there's rarely ever a time you should need to do that (on the ground, maybe?). You just... retrim. There is zero need, pretty much EVER, to ''reset'' trim in flight.


Edited by Mars Exulte

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5 hours ago, X_legio said:

Control indicators ?

RCtrl + Enter.  If it is accumulating error as you say, it'll show it.

Quote

Another question, when in autohover the Altitude AP engage automatically, but to disengage I have to push the button right ?

Yes


Edited by Taz1004
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On 11/15/2021 at 8:09 AM, Mars Exulte said:

Only use the channels you ACTUALLY DESIRE at that moment.

On 11/15/2021 at 8:09 AM, Mars Exulte said:

As soon as I see somebody mention flying around ''with all three channels'' that's a big red flag they do not understand what they actually do.

Hmm...  I can't really agree with these bits...

 

I always fly with Roll, Pitch and Heading channels enabled and I do understand what they do and how to use them.  I never use Alt as it will try to kill you. It has succeeded a few times.

Regarding Heading channel....  It only actually "does" anything if you have given it an actual heading to point you at.  You do that by enabling route mode and selecting the desired WP or by turning on auto turn to target.  Small chance it might do that in NAV mode but I'm quite sure even in nav mode you still need to have route mode turned on to make it actually try to point the airframe.  I never use NAV mode though.  Failing those...  It just ensures that heading change is damped, but doesn't try to actually rotate the airframe.

Also to note...  Don't use Auto-Hover unless you're well outside of the AO.  Enemy tanks will main gun you if you sit still.  Learn to trim into a gentle "strafe" from cover to cover and adjust your altitude regularly.

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Hmmm. I've never used route mode, but I used to fight the autopilot all the time before I realised it was the autopilot and why it was doing it. I fly with pitch and roll, but never heading ever since and quit having the problem. I only activate the ones I want. Perhaps I missed something, then.

 

As for the MBTs, yeah, hovering inside 4k is asking for a sabot, ATGM even further. Not a good idea.

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I don't think there's any do's and don'ts.  I use auto hover when hiding behind trees.  I toggle heading hold on and off as heading only trim.  And a lot of techniques depends on equipment.  Someone with rudder pedal will find different way to fly than with twist rudder etc.

Original question was trim "accumulating" error.  This sometimes happens if you use roll to compensate when you should be using rudder to compensate.  Happened to me when I was using twist rudder and because it's hard to maintain twist.  Which is why I suggested looking at controls indicator.

If you're using twist rudder, try using sliders or rotators as rudder instead.

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Fully agree.  Do what works :).

 

Yeah regarding trim accumulation...  That also happens when "tapping" trim instead of holding it.  Hold the stick very slightly in one direction and keep tapping trim with controls indicator on...  It'll accumulate.

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30 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

Yeah regarding trim accumulation...  That also happens when "tapping" trim instead of holding it.  Hold the stick very slightly in one direction and keep tapping trim with controls indicator on...  It'll accumulate.

Yes that's what I meant happened to me with twist rudder.  I roll to compensate for rotation instead of rudder, trim, and it becomes unresponsive to further roll input.

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In the instance I describe It shouldn't accumulate trim if you hold trim instead of tap.

 

If you tap trim repeatedly without centering the stick (assuming no FFB...) it will accumulate an offset and eventually be mostly un-trimable or seem like it needs a trim reset.  This can also happen, but to a much lesser extent, if you don't allow the aircraft to "settle" into a nice settled state/equilibrium before releasing trim.

 

If I interpret you correctly it sounds like you're holding the roll to compensate for a yaw effect, then you trim.  After trim it's unresponsive?  It's unresponsive forever or just for a bit?

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33 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

In the instance I describe It shouldn't accumulate trim if you hold trim instead of tap.

 

If you tap trim repeatedly without centering the stick (assuming no FFB...) it will accumulate an offset and eventually be mostly un-trimable or seem like it needs a trim reset.  This can also happen, but to a much lesser extent, if you don't allow the aircraft to "settle" into a nice settled state/equilibrium before releasing trim.

 

If I interpret you correctly it sounds like you're holding the roll to compensate for a yaw effect, then you trim.  After trim it's unresponsive?  It's unresponsive forever or just for a bit?

I said I used to.  I'm trying to help troubleshoot for the OP.  Not for myself.

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Man, many ways to skin the cat in this thread. Depending on the situation I use all 4 channels (so ALT too), baro and radio altimeters, route and descent modes, turn to target, everything it has on offer. I only use FD when I'm in situations where I want very specific manual control (and when I do I leave the main 3 channels on, but make sure altitude is disabled), so in dangerous areas where I need to fly complex paths, hide behind buildings or hills, and when employing rockets or the cannon on aggressive attack runs.

I almost never turn the FD on when I'm taking off, when on route to somewhere, coming to a pre-planned stop, or when using standoff weaponry, and only use it during landings for specific kinds of landings. Normally when approaching a roomy landing area I let the autopilot do most of the work of coming to a halt or going forward slowly, and if I'm feeling particularly lazy I'll even put it on auto-hover when I'm above my landing spot and use descent mode to touch down... 😃

Most of the time I'm in it the heli is basically flying itself, I'm usually spending my time between scanning the scenery and working the Shkval and the ABRIS.


Edited by jubuttib
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I feel like I operate more like you Jub...  Very rarely will I use FD.  I probably should use it a bit more honestly...  Specifically when I need to weasel or do "close" air support.  Currently I do that holding trim...  Which in my setup means I need to let go of trim to switch weapon pylons, but not to switch to guns.  And really...  In that case I usually fire the vikhr's down an HMS slaved beam anyway with no "lock".

I do not turn Alt channel on though.  I can see the benefit in your described situations for sure but I just don't do those generally so it never gets turned on.  

The Shark is such a CAS beast...  People have no idea :).

 

 

Regarding the OP though...

If you are "tapping" trim like you would in some aircraft...  That's not the way it's supposed to be used.  You should hold trim any time you're "telling the shark where to go".  Once it's "going there"...  Release trim and it will continue to go there.  You shoot stuff, it fly's :).

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6 hours ago, M1Combat said:

 

The Shark is such a CAS beast...  People have no idea :).

 

 

But we do, and thus the love. :drinks_drunk:

 

Would really like to see that new S-25-0 rocket on the Blackshark. That would be some lovely Kaboom!

Some of the planes, but all of the maps!

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/14/2021 at 3:17 AM, X_legio said:

Maybe I am doing something wrong but I am facing this situation.

I have understood the trim work, set them to default with no rudder trim, fly with the usual 3 ap no fd.

Now, that is the issue, I take off and flight, trim trim trim all is ok but after a while the ka start to become difficult to fly, seems he doesn't accept well the new input. So I hit the trim reset button and the beast after pitching up ( normal) start to fly well again, trim trim trim and he fly well for a while....

What is the problem ?

 

Replying to a couple month old thread but um.. 

Has anybody else caught that he has trim set to default?  

"Default" is for use with Force Feedback.    With an MSFFB2 when you trim, the stick stays where you put it, and has no spring forces while the trim button is held in an attempt to mimic a real magnetic force trim system found in helicopters like the Ka-50, or the Huey or many other helicopters flying around the world today.    I'm pretty sure the Gazelle has this functionality IRL  even if P-chop borked the FFB implementation.   not being a real pilot that's just my best guess though.  

 

If you're not using a FFB stick, and have a spring loaded stick that returns to center, you need to select the appropriate trimming method which will have the word "Center" in it.   Each time you trim you have to let the stick return to center to regain control of the aircraft.    Unlike a FFB stick, or maybe a stick that has dampeners to keep it in place, where you just set it and leave it. 


Edited by Headwarp
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"Has anybody else caught that he has trim set to default? "

Hmm...  It appears MAYBE you're the first to catch that LOL 🙂

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On 1/6/2022 at 7:48 PM, Headwarp said:

Replying to a couple month old thread but um.. 

Has anybody else caught that he has trim set to default?  

"Default" is for use with Force Feedback.    With an MSFFB2 when you trim, the stick stays where you put it, and has no spring forces while the trim button is held in an attempt to mimic a real magnetic force trim system found in helicopters like the Ka-50, or the Huey or many other helicopters flying around the world today.    I'm pretty sure the Gazelle has this functionality IRL  even if P-chop borked the FFB implementation.   not being a real pilot that's just my best guess though.  

 

If you're not using a FFB stick, and have a spring loaded stick that returns to center, you need to select the appropriate trimming method which will have the word "Center" in it.   Each time you trim you have to let the stick return to center to regain control of the aircraft.    Unlike a FFB stick, or maybe a stick that has dampeners to keep it in place, where you just set it and leave it. 

 

Good catch. But you can use" "Default" without FFB as well. I used this before I got my FFB2. 

The trick is to keep pressing the trimmer but, and when you have trimmed it, quickly center it. Of course you now have a different starting point, but if you press and hold it again when you need to trim, it works very well. I believe this is the correct way for the Ka-50 anyway. 😉 

And yes, I repeat very good catch, and it's likely that this is OP's issue. 😊 

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