Screamadelica Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 Or in other words...how to perform a smooth hammerhead in the Spitfire. I have no problem in keeping the aircraft in the vertical but when it comes to full left rudder,right aileron and forward stick time the lovely Spit tends to wobble all over the place a bit with the nose being reluctant to point downwards, which sometimes gives you some unplanned stall recovery practice. I've watched all the videos and can do nice smooth stall turns in the 109, but the Spit is giving me a bit of grief. Any hints or tips? Is it due to the elliptical wing? Just curious..... Cheers, Scream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razo+r Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 Curious, why do you apply left rudder and right aileron in a hammerhead? That's gonna make you slip like crazy. Why not just apply pitch only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamadelica Posted November 17, 2021 Author Share Posted November 17, 2021 Full explanation here: https://britishaerobaticacademy.com/the-stall-turn-or-hammerhead/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyco Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 A hammerhead is not the same s a stall-turn. As I understand it, a hammerhead is where, from the vertical, the ac pitches forward - all the hammerheads that I have done have been due to my incompetence, when trying to do a stall turn. In a stall-turn the aircraft should ‘cart-wheel’ to the chosen side, that is it yaws. In real life, you will normally need to apply a little forward stick pressure to stay in the vertical. The trick is to apply rudder shortly before the aircraft stops moving upwards so as to start it in the direction that you want to turn, and then use ailerons, in the natural sense, to stop the ‘high’ wing, which will be going faster that the other wing, from rolling the aircraft. As to being able to do them well in a Spitfire, I share your frustration. I have never done what I think to be a satisfactory one, in any DCS aircraft, despite many years of doing them for real in Chipmunk and the Jet Provost training aircraft. I suspect this is partly the lack of real feedback both to the body and from the controls. For example in real life, you need to keep a tight hold of both the stick and the rudder, to prevent any tail-slide from forcing any of the controls onto their stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD_Fenrir Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 The Spitfires rudder authority is highly reliant on the propwash - have you been keeping power on during the manoeuvre of have you cut power entirely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyco Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 As a general rule of thumb, I close the throttle as the nose comes down through the horizon. Unfortunately, in the Spit this doesn’t usually happen cleanly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc3908 Posted November 19, 2021 Share Posted November 19, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 7:06 AM, flyco said: A hammerhead is not the same s a stall-turn. As I understand it, a hammerhead is where, from the vertical, the ac pitches forward - all the hammerheads that I have done have been due to my incompetence, when trying to do a stall turn. In a stall-turn the aircraft should ‘cart-wheel’ to the chosen side, that is it yaws. I'm not an expert, but in my experience "hammerhead" is synonymous with "stall turn", i.e. fly upwards until the speed bleeds to 0 (or so), then kick (usually left) rudder so that the aircraft yaws around the left wingtip until pointing straight down. Then let the airspeed recover and pull out. (Obviously additional control inputs are needed to compensate for torque and other effects). I believe that what you are describing is a push-pull humpty bump: Start vertically as you would with a stall turn, but at the top, instead of kicking the rudder, push the stick forward (with a quick blip of throttle) so that you flop over the top straight ahead and you end up pointing down. Of course, this only works with a neutrally balanced aerobatic aircraft with large control surfaces. The Spit is simply not designed to do advanced aerobatics - its control surfaces are not large enough, do not deflect sufficiently and the engine will likely overheat if you "prop-hang" it. Not to mention that the engine will stall out when you push forward on the stick a the top. I'll see if I can jump in DCS later today and see what I can do in the Spit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamadelica Posted November 20, 2021 Author Share Posted November 20, 2021 (edited) On 11/18/2021 at 11:27 PM, DD_Fenrir said: The Spitfires rudder authority is highly reliant on the propwash - have you been keeping power on during the manoeuvre of have you cut power entirely? Hi DD, as per recommended procedure for this manoeuvre once the speed drops to 0 and you kick the rudder left, I pull the throttle back as the aircraft is starting to rotate to the left. It's at this point that things go awry and the Spitfire seems to float rather than smoothly turning on its wingtip. I'll try delaying the reduction in throttle and see if that makes a difference. I've managed some beautiful stall turns in the 109. Had a DCS moment when it just smoothly rotated and had a feeling of being suspended in space, but the Spitfire doesn't want to play nice. I'll keep trying. Gave it a try today and it is definitely better to pull the throttle back as you kick the left rudder, keeping the engine running whilst trying to arc the aircraft just ends up in all sorts of trouble. I almost managed to execute a couple of reasonably smooth stall turns but still a bit wobbly. I never read about the Spitfire being difficult in stall turns, not sure what is going on here... Edited November 20, 2021 by Screamadelica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philstyle Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) On 11/20/2021 at 2:08 AM, Screamadelica said: Hi DD, as per recommended procedure for this manoeuvre once the speed drops to 0 and you kick the rudder left, I pull the throttle back as the aircraft is starting to rotate to the left. It's at this point that things go awry and the Spitfire seems to float rather than smoothly turning on its wingtip. I'll try delaying the reduction in throttle and see if that makes a difference. I've managed some beautiful stall turns in the 109. Had a DCS moment when it just smoothly rotated and had a feeling of being suspended in space, but the Spitfire doesn't want to play nice. I'll keep trying. Gave it a try today and it is definitely better to pull the throttle back as you kick the left rudder, keeping the engine running whilst trying to arc the aircraft just ends up in all sorts of trouble. I almost managed to execute a couple of reasonably smooth stall turns but still a bit wobbly. I never read about the Spitfire being difficult in stall turns, not sure what is going on here... If your airspeed is 0 you will have absolutely no control response, given then complete absence of air moving over any part of the aircraft. You need to start inputting a touch of rudder before you hit stall speed (at around 90mph indicated) in order to get the nose to tip slightly off the vertical BEFORE you stall. Then, once stalled, gravity will pull the nose down toward the ground, rotating the nose over the CoG of the aircraft. Also, go right, not left. You will find it much easier. Edited November 24, 2021 by philstyle On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamadelica Posted November 26, 2021 Author Share Posted November 26, 2021 Thanks philstyle. I've been putting in some time experimenting a bit and found that, as you say, you need to put a good full boot of rudder in a bit before she hits zero. I wait until the left wing just starts to drop and by also timing things correctly with the stick I seem to be getting better results. You get so used to being gentle with the stick most of the time, but this is one manoeuvre that benefits from fairly strong reins. No more floating and wobbling about. Looking more respectable now. Interesting idea with going right, I've always just gone in the direction of the wing drop, I'll give it a try. Cheers, Scream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamadelica Posted December 18, 2021 Author Share Posted December 18, 2021 On 11/24/2021 at 6:51 PM, philstyle said: Also, go right, not left. You will find it much easier. For some bizarre reason I'm finding it easier to go left rather than right. I may have to revise what I'm doing in that case..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mav87th Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 Thats pretty normal. The engine rotation enertia will help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamadelica Posted April 28, 2022 Author Share Posted April 28, 2022 That's why I thought it odd that turning right would be easier. Practice, practice, practice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 Nothing odd at all, it just matches the physics of it. Turning towards torque => easier, turning against torque => harder. "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamadelica Posted April 29, 2022 Author Share Posted April 29, 2022 On 11/24/2021 at 6:51 PM, philstyle said: If your airspeed is 0 you will have absolutely no control response, given then complete absence of air moving over any part of the aircraft. You need to start inputting a touch of rudder before you hit stall speed (at around 90mph indicated) in order to get the nose to tip slightly off the vertical BEFORE you stall. Then, once stalled, gravity will pull the nose down toward the ground, rotating the nose over the CoG of the aircraft. Also, go right, not left. You will find it much easier. 21 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said: Nothing odd at all, it just matches the physics of it. Turning towards torque => easier, turning against torque => harder. That's why I thought the advice was maybe back to front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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