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Engine over heat issue is back


BSS_Vidar

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3 hours ago, BSS_Sniper said:

We are real world pilots. We don’t use game mode and we understand how to keep an engine cool. It was a problem when this plane first came out and was fixed. The problem returned and the only fix is taking the radiators out of auto and fully opening. Doesn’t matter if you’re idling get n the ground, clumping at 250 mph, cruising within proper parameters at 20k, etc. 

I tested it couple of times, manual or auto P-51 still over heats, in many cases manual opening don't change a thing because auto mode have them wide open.

As i remember i could idle P-51 on the ground as long as i could w/o overheating, so you are saying that coolant goes above 121C in your case and by opening shutter manually temps goes down, in that case it is weird. I position P-51 up wind and it keep cool nicely. Auto mode shutters are set according to P-51 maintenance manual as @YoYo said.

My problem with P-51 cooling is coolant radiator efficiency and it is not related to shutters, it underperforms.

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8 hours ago, BSS_Sniper said:

We are real world pilots. We don’t use game mode and we understand how to keep an engine cool. It was a problem when this plane first came out and was fixed. The problem returned and the only fix is taking the radiators out of auto and fully opening. Doesn’t matter if you’re idling get n the ground, clumping at 250 mph, cruising within proper parameters at 20k, etc. 

That's not my experience, although I fly the plane in civilian manner, rather casually, not exceeding 46" @ 2700. The only way to cause overheat on the ground for me is standing  on a ramp with wind blowing up my a$$, but that's how it always was in this module. Haven't had overheat during climb and cruise either, though I usually have rather average ambient temps set in the mission.

I do, however use the modded files for both P-51 and TF-51 to get rid of the bug with carb heat and filter being stuck always on, maybe that helps? Mind you, I'm not talking about oil temp being beyond green, because we've been told apparently that's how it's supposed to be.


Edited by Art-J

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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17 hours ago, Lixma 06 said:

The biggest killer (for me) in the P-51 is when you attempt, during combat, some variant of a wing-over or stall-turn. The temps will skyrocket to the point of blowing the radiator in under three seconds if you get caught in a low speed manoeuvre.

Same with the Spitty actually, it's quite annoying - even though one can game the game and prevent it, but it still doesn't make it OK.

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3 hours ago, Reflected said:

Same with the Spitty actually, it's quite annoying - even though one can game the game and prevent it, but it still doesn't make it OK.

From P-51 manual i know that plane is capable of full power engine run up, this mean that crew tight tail to the ground, someone hops in cockpit, start the thing, open throttle to max and test engine, and this proof that p-51 can cool it self with static prop wash, and this mean that at very low speed should not be cooling problems.

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Quick vid - I let the needles stabilize then ran it up to approximately 'max continuous' on the ground (couldn't go higher without tipping over). The temps (coolant & oil) both increase, but only gradually.

Then I do a few climbs. Near the top I throttle back (certainly less than power than I was using on the ground) but you can see the gauges shoot up vastly quicker than when I was stationary. I pop the radiator on the third one.

It's possible I damaged the radiator during the ground test, but the main reason for the video was to show the lightning-fast temperature increases during flight.

 

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On 2/11/2022 at 8:15 PM, NineLine said:

Tracks, always tracks.

See quote.

On 2/12/2022 at 8:46 PM, Reflected said:

Same with the Spitty actually, it's quite annoying - even though one can game the game and prevent it, but it still doesn't make it OK.

I asked Mr Grey about this some time ago, and if you are not managing the engine in a climb, you can easily overheat the engine. It's not unrealistic, but then no one is giving me a track so I can;t say what is going on.

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On 2/13/2022 at 3:37 AM, Lixma 06 said:

Quick vid - I let the needles stabilize then ran it up to approximately 'max continuous' on the ground (couldn't go higher without tipping over). The temps (coolant & oil) both increase, but only gradually.

Then I do a few climbs. Near the top I throttle back (certainly less than power than I was using on the ground) but you can see the gauges shoot up vastly quicker than when I was stationary. I pop the radiator on the third one.

It's possible I damaged the radiator during the ground test, but the main reason for the video was to show the lightning-fast temperature increases during flight.

 

Our engines do have damage over time, if you overheated on the ground, its possible it has already registered damage, and less tolerable to heat later in the flight. In my eyes, you really abused the engine and asked for issues in this video. I mean to be fair, you took off when temps were in or near red, I am not sure a pilot would do that.

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OK here are 2 easily reproducible tracks. P-51 and Spit. I didn't even have to use full power. Just pulled up until I ran out of speed and let the aircraft fall back. A maneuver I never ever read about being forbidden in dozens of memoirs written by Spit / Mustang pilots, nor original pilots notes. It's hard to prove something explicitly that was never a problem IRL and hence is never mentioned in sources.

Both the P-51 and Spitfire manuals talk about full power runups and the only caution there is to make sure the ground crew keeps the tail on the ground to keep the aircraft from nosing over.

Nobody is expecting the engine to be cooled in such situations for a prolonged time, like too steep a climb, or mismanaged engine with previous damage, etc..but a single stall turn, chandelle, call it whatever you like, should not break the engine in a matter of seconds.

 

 

 

 

spitcooling.trk p51cooling.trk

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Ok, here is a video of your track, as you flew it.

Here it is, while probably poorly executed, more along the lines of how Nick recommends.

To maintain what you had the engine set at, you need the speed to cool the air, otherwise, you get what you get. This is how it is in the real deal.

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I'll check your tracks in the morning, later here, but I watched the first video and you were already overheating into the climb, I'd like to see if you flew by the gauges and pulled back on the throttle sooner if you would have been ok, but by the time you did in the video, you engine was already in the damager zone, and then losing all airspeed, even with the throttles drop, it was most likely too late to save it. 

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12 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I'll check your tracks in the morning, later here, but I watched the first video and you were already overheating into the climb

Which is a red flag in itself - A brand new P-51 on the edge of exploding after barely thirty seconds of Military power?

 

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@NineLine Nice stall turn! Nobody debates the fact that it should overheat without airflow, it's just strange that it overheats within 3-4 seconds and breaks the engine. I've never read about having to cut the engine in such a situation. Which is strange, because if it had been so essential you'd think all documents would warn new pilots about this. But I haven't found such instructions anywhere.

 

Now whether it's because it overheats too fast, or because even though the temp change rate is realistic, but it causes irreversible damage too fast, I don't know.

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20 minutes ago, Lixma 06 said:

Which is a red flag in itself - A brand new P-51 on the edge of exploding after barely thirty seconds of Military power?

 

I am not too sure about that, but I will check your tracks as I said, in your video, I mean you did pull back on the throttle, but you left the RPM at 3000, I mean there is a reason that is a red line. So you kept engine RPM at 3000, and the engine oil continues to heat up, break down, and then everything else heats up... I still think this isn't how you should be flying the aircraft. But when I try, and I cant fly it out safely as I expect it, I will run it by Yo-Yo or Nick.

 

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Yeah same conclusion as the Spitfire really, you need to manage your engine, you need to watch your gauges and you need to adjust accordingly, I was able to do a number of stall turns doing this with no issue to the engine, same as flying straight and level, if you are running the engine at max you need to monitor your temps.

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3 hours ago, NineLine said:

Yeah same conclusion as the Spitfire really, you need to manage your engine, you need to watch your gauges and you need to adjust accordingly,

That's what everyone has been doing - but it doesn't mean there's isn't an issue. Thanks for taking a look, though.

 

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vor 16 Stunden schrieb Reflected:

, etc..but a single stall turn, chandelle, call it whatever you like, should not break the engine in a matter of seconds.

As nine line said, it depends on the speed. Speed = Cooling. Speed = Life. 

If you manage to gain speed fast from a stall and not climbed for too long, the engine wont blow.

If youre too slow, turn over or tumble, you cook the enigne.

Why this was never stated in literature? Maybe pilots were taught what they mustnt do, in order to keep the engine running.
If your life depends on it, you certainly dont want to mess with the very thing that keeps you alive.

It is and was very well known, that the pony had a very delicate engine, especially the cooling. it was stated by pilots, that if the cooling went bonkers, you were out.

So, as it was known, they surely will not risk a cooked engine and fly by parameters.

And then again "but it causes irreversible damage too fast, I don't know."  

Exactly. You dont know. You assume.

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@Doughguy well, do you know? Also, why isn't anything like this mentioned in training materials, if it was so important? How come it's not in the pilots notes where all the important instructions and aircraft specific stuff are collected? I assume RL pilots didn't perform flawless chandelles every time either. They tumbled, slid and spun in the heat of the battle.

Especially if, like in DCS, it was only the case with the Spit and the P-51. The 4th FG changed from P-47s to P-51s in 24 hours, because Blakeslee promised they wouldn't be off ops for more than that. How come no aircraft were lost to this phenomenon? Or during the BoB when young pilots went into battle after only a dozen hours in the Spit. It just doesn't add up...

 

PS (OT): They were afraid of losing the cooling to enemy fire, not mishandling. If the cooling went bonkers, you still had a chance by the way: to prime the engine constantly. Goody Goodson once got home with his glove worn through by the primer pump like this, and so did Godfrey all the way from Berlin. I haven't tried it in DCS though.


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15 minutes ago, Doughguy said:

As nine line said, it depends on the speed. Speed = Cooling. Speed = Life. 

If you manage to gain speed fast from a stall and not climbed for too long, the engine wont blow.

If youre too slow, turn over or tumble, you cook the enigne.

Yes...all this happens in the simulation. We know this already. 

The question remains - is it realistic?

If 'our' P-51 was sent into combat there would be a placard in the cockpit that read 'AVOID VERTICAL MANEOEUVRES LIKE THE PLAGUE'. 

32 minutes ago, Doughguy said:

Why this was never stated in literature? Maybe pilots were taught what they mustnt do, in order to keep the engine running.
If your life depends on it, you certainly dont want to mess with the very thing that keeps you alive.

I think if your engine is liable to explode after three seconds of reduced speed during combat you'd want to know about it - and then ask for a transfer to the P-47.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Reflected:

PS (OT): if the cooling went bonkers, you still had a chance: to prime the engine constantly

Not seen this in any manual either.

Zitat

Also, why isn't anything like this mentioned in training materials, if it was so important? 

So on the otherhand itll mean, as its not stated in the manual, its neglegible?

 

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Also, think about this: The Spit Mk.I had floating carburetors that made the engine cut out for a few seconds during negative g-s. It's a nuisance in a dogfight, but it doesn't kill your engine nad doesn't put you out of the fight. It's nothing compared to losing your engine in a high power stall. Yet, it's in every book I ever read about Spit Mk.Is, even in books written by Lufwaffe pilots. And it's just a simple cutout for a few seconds.

Something that's a so much bigger issue, with absolutely zero mention anywhere...as I said, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Just now, Doughguy said:

Not seen this in any manual either.

https://www.amazon.com/Tumult-Clouds-James-Goodson/dp/0451211987

Just now, Doughguy said:

So on the otherhand itll mean, as its not stated in the manual, its neglegible?

 

Well, losing your engine over Berlin due to an ill performed chandelle is anything but negligible.

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb Lixma 06:

I think if your engine is liable to explode after three seconds of reduced speed during combat you'd want to know about it - and then ask for a transfer to the P-47.

Again, ive not had much problems with the engine aswell.

So, the P-47 is realistic yes? Cause it serves your idea?

Zitat

If 'our' P-51 was sent into combat there would be a placard in the cockpit that read 'AVOID VERTICAL MANEOEUVRES LIKE THE PLAGUE'. 

I guess its something tought in basic flight training, applying to all aircraft at that time. The K4 does climbe better yes. Is its engine bombproof? No.

P-51 isnt a K4. It´s a different engine.

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Reflected:

Is that a manual? doesnt look like it. It´s a thing theyve worked out during war.

 

Zitat

Well, losing your engine over Berlin due to an ill performed chandelle is anything but negligible.

Well i guess then the instructors mustve thought them young hot shots good on how to fly the pony eh?

 

Zitat

as I said, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Well, just because you cant grasp or imagine something, doesnt make it untrue. 
What we can do here is to grasp a portion of what really was going on back then. We are no experts here. We´ve not been flying these planes under wartime conditions.
This whole sim is an estimate.

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3 minutes ago, Doughguy said:

Is that a manual? doesnt look like it. It´s a thing theyve worked out during war.

So I guess it's not true then?

3 minutes ago, Doughguy said:

 

Well i guess then the instructors mustve thought them young hot shots good on how to fly the pony eh?

Did you read my comments? do you think the 4th FG contracted instructors for that 24 hours? but hey, you just dismissed Goody's book, so I guess you1re not interested in historical sources.

3 minutes ago, Doughguy said:

 

Well, just because you cant grasp or imagine something, doesnt make it untrue. 
What we can do here is to grasp a portion of what really was going on back then. We are no experts here. We´ve not been flying these planes under wartime conditions.
This whole sim is an estimate.

 

I'm still waiting for you to produce some source or explicit reference to counter our arguments here. But you're just negating stuff which doesn't help me getting convinced that what we have is correct.

Here's a period instruction video. "Any prohibited maneuvers?" - they're only worried about structural damage on the wings and oil supply during negative g-s.
 

 

16 minutes ago, Doughguy said:

So, the P-47 is realistic yes? Cause it serves your idea?

So out of the blue you're stating that the P-47 is not realistic, because if it was, that would not serve your idea. That's a very long shot.

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